#68 - It's Time To Build, Founder Dating, MBA As A Service

All right, we got a friend of the show here, Jordan Harbinger. He's one of the guys who's been advising us on how to build this podcast because his podcast is way more successful than ours and has been around— he's been doing podcasting for like 12 and a half years, which, Jordan, that's got to be as long as podcasting has existed, right?

Yeah, I think podcasts have been around for like 14 years, and I've— or 15, and I've been around for 13 of those. So yeah, when I started, there was no way— there were no iPhones, so you couldn't get podcasts on your phone. You had to use an iPod to play them.

Yeah, straight to cassette. That's how long this guy's been doing it. So Jordan, you know, I like your show. I've been binging it while in quarantine because, you know, what else am I going to do besides try to learn something new or improve myself in some way? And I got to say, I like it because you do the, you know, the interview style show where you go deep with a guest. I think, you know, you had— I was listening to the one with Tony Hawk, which is pretty awesome. And I got to say, I like that you don't do the kind of surface level, you know, just, just, you know, pitty-patting around with the questions or trying to do, you know, inspirational fluff where you're just saying, go, you can do this. So with that episode with Tony Hawk, what was that like? Because Tony Hawk's an icon. How was it, you know, interviewing Tony Hawk?

That is epic. Uh, you know, I actually met Tony Hawk. Uh, we went on a trip to Africa, a charity trip together, and believe it or not, we were halfway up a mountain in Ethiopia where, you know, it's a, like, this is a mountain village and somebody saw him there and they were like, "Tony Hawk!" You know, that's probably the only English word they said to us all day. They identified Tony Hawk. Tony Hawk on a mountain in Ethiopia. That's how famous that guy is. So that's an amazing guest to have on the show.

Imagine being that famous that you get recognized in the middle of countries where like nobody speaks your language and they maybe don't even have skateboards.

Yeah. We were there trying to give people clean water. They didn't even have water, but they knew Tony Hawk. That's how famous that guy is.

Amazing.

Awesome. Well, if you want to hear more from Jordan, we're going to be having him on more and more. He's a friend of the house and you should listen to his show. It's one of the podcasts that I would recommend. If you like Tim Ferriss' stuff, if you like our stuff,, you're gonna like his stuff. And so go check out the Jordan Harbinger Show on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, you'll find him there.

I think a lot of great companies are monarchies. Either there's a king or a queen, and that person's the boss.

What's up, good people? We are back. Sam, how you doing, man?

What's up?

New mic, new outfit, new room.

New room. Somebody wrote in the comment section, they go, "I would give this 5 stars, but Sam's mic sounds even worse than before. So until you fix it, I'm not gonna give you 5 stars." So it worked.

Nice, all right, you're motivated. Cool, we got a bunch of interesting stuff to do today, to talk about today. I feel like today, you know, sometimes we come in and there's one bullet in the chamber and you're hoping that that's the one that fires out. I feel like we got 6 bullets in the chamber today, so I feel good.

And you want to start with this article you just made me read?

Yeah. All right. I just made Sam read the Mark Andreessen "It's Time to Build" blog post. Why? Because it was a bit polarizing. Some people were like, hell yeah, I'm inspired. This is, you know, call to arms for the tech industry, for entrepreneurs. And then some people were like, yo, he just said a bunch of nothing.

It's not for the tech industry. I can't stand this stuff. There is no tech. I don't want to use the word tech industry. Industry anymore. There is no tech industry. Everything is the same.

Everything is tech, or you're saying there is no tech industry?

Well, what does tech industry mean?

Like the internet companies, technology companies.

Every company uses the internet. Every company uses technology. I hate when people say it's the tech. No, it's not tech. It's everyone. I mean, even the dumbest restaurant that's run by people who are 100 years old that don't know anything about, quote, technology have a website.

I like that you're coming in hot today. I like it. Alright, so that's true. Yeah, that's actually the most recent— probably the prior most famous blog post that Marc Andreessen put out was "Software is Eating the World," which is basically what you're saying, which is that, hey, yeah, it started where software was for software companies and for internet companies, but every company is going to use software. Every company is an internet company. I don't care what industry you're in. If you haven't already been transformed using software, it will happen. Software is eating the world. This is the most famous blog post, I think, since that. What did you think when you read this? Were you A, inspired, B, annoyed, C, other?

You want to summarize the article for the readers first, or listeners?

Yeah, you just read it, so you do it.

Okay, so Mark Andreessen, big-time investor who's been quiet a lot lately, but he's pretty much the best of the best when it comes to venture capital. It's an article called "Time to Build," went pretty viral. I don't know when it was launched, 3 days, or announced, or released a few days ago, and it basically just says corona might be some people's fault, might not be some people's fault. It doesn't really matter whose fault it is, but the fact is, is that we have to create stuff. We could have been prepared— or not prepared, but we could have had— we could have built things. For example, right now, the— what is it called? The PP— what's the loan? PPP loan program. That's been a disaster. I've gone through it, so I can tell firsthand it's been a disaster. It's been quite hard to distribute that money It's been quite hard to get vaccines. It's been quite hard to get therapies for corona. And what he is saying is, yeah, it's because we've all gotten complacent and we haven't pushed— aggressively pushed forward to make new stuff. And it doesn't matter what it is. It could be skyscraper, it could be games. It doesn't matter what it is. But he's just saying, it's most— it seems like he's mostly saying America has become soft and not innovate quickly, has not innovated quickly.

Yeah, he basically is like, it's a failure for, for us to take action. So he's like, you know, why do— okay, yeah, why don't we have ventilators? Why don't we have enough ICU beds? Why don't we have the ability to pump out a vaccine faster? Okay, even simpler than that. Why don't we have enough cotton swabs? Why don't we have enough gowns and masks and eye shields? Why can't we get these faster? Hospitals are asking for ponchos to be used because they're running out of medical gowns. Ponchos, this is America, this is 2020, how is this possible? And then he goes on and he's like, all right, we decided to give trillions of dollars to bail it out, we can't even give it out. We don't have the infrastructure to even give out the money. Why don't we have— why are we sort of so complacent and why are we so slow to action? Why didn't we take action before this? Why can't we take action post this? And it was sort of like, you know, you're losing your edge. So he gives an example. He's like, when HBO wants to produce Westworld and they want to portray like, you know, the American city of the future with like, you know, modern everything, they don't go to Seattle or LA or New York, they go to Singapore. And you know, that's where— that looks more like the future than America does. And so then he— yeah, you know, education. He goes through manufacturing, infrastructure. And so he just goes through each thing, and his thing is like, you know, it's time to build. We need to be building and rebuilding all of these things. You know, universities need to be rebuilt, roads, cars. Uh, you know, we need to— we need to build. And that's sort of the call to arms.

I have a strong opinion about this. So, uh, you know this, I'm a history buff. I love, uh, I love reading about history. It's, um, It's my favorite thing to do. And my favorite era is right— is post-Civil War, so like 1870s to about 1920. Um, are you familiar with that era?

No.

Okay, so it's a really interesting era. The Civil War just happened, and imagine— I mean, more people died in the Civil War maybe than any other war America's ever had. I mean, it was brutal. And afterwards they were like, all right, let's get to work, let's do some cool stuff. Everyone was like almost stir-crazy, and so they created a lot of amazing things. And this is where Vanderbilt came from. This is where John Rockefeller came from. This is where Andrew Carnegie came from. And the reason all these great businesses came to be is, like I said, people were hungry, but also America wasn't number one. I mean, we were still growing. We were trying to become the best at whatever we were trying to become. And also there wasn't a lot of regulation. And so this is why a lot of these guys who seem like they're so rich— I mean, John Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, compared to Jeff Bezos, were significantly richer. And it was because they're— up until Rockefeller in the 1920s, anti-monopoly. There was no such thing as monopoly laws. There was no stock— there's very little stock regulation, stock market regulation. You could do anything. And one of the reasons I think a lot got done is because, A, you could do anything, which was pros and cons, and B, we— it was kind of like crony capitalism, but also we weren't number one and we wanted to be number one. And that's why a lot of really interesting things came from. We were the underdogs still. And in my opinion, China is kind of like America in about 1910, which is America had a lot— China isn't capitalism, they're not communism, but they're definitely— they're crony capitalism. And that's kind of what America was a little bit in the 1910, 1900, 1910. And anyway, I think that what we need now is definitely far more like, we ain't shit, we're the underdog, we have to win, almost win at all costs type of mentality.

And that's impossible, I think, for America to do. Like, you know, I think about it now. I went from doing startups for 10 years to now I work in a 2,000-person company. And no matter the good intentions or even, you know, individuals who have rally cries like this, it is like impossible to change, you know, such a big ship. And that's a 2,000-person company.

Imagine— Watch, Sean, I'm gonna take away your apartment from you.

"Uh, you're now fired." Yeah, but that doesn't happen. What I'm saying is—

"You have to provide for your daughter.

What are you gonna do?" Yeah, what I'm saying is it doesn't happen, right? So, uh, inside a big organization, it doesn't happen. America is just a giant organization, right? So you have all these different parties, all these different constituents, all of whom are, you know, contributing to this one large institution called America. Um, the reality is that changing that to be— to go back, you can't like turn back the clock and go back to where Regulation goes down, urgency goes up.

Yes, I can make urgency go up. Urgency's up right now. We just approved a trillion-dollar bailout in 5 days.

That's how big companies try to solve problems, is by approving a giant cash bailout. That's not, uh, that's not doing what this is about, right? What this is about is, uh, sort of, you know, the call to arms on building, innovating, taking risks, and, uh, holding everybody to that standard. And, uh, if you're not doing that, you need to either support that or you need to get out of the way, right? If you're the builders, go build. Supporters support the builders, and if you're neither of those, you need to get out of the way. And I just don't see that happening. I think that's like a dream if we think that that's going to just change, that culture is just going to change now when there's like 300 million people who have been operating a certain way their whole life and everybody's got their best interest.

I think you can change it, but I don't think it will. But I think you can change it. If Sean got laid off and the bank that he stored his money at went out of business and he lost all of his money, I have a feeling you're gonna get urgent and you're gonna create something cool.

People will riot and people— that sort of thing can happen. I guess what I'm saying is like, even when you just look at the coronavirus response, you see what China did, you see what Singapore did, you see what South Korea did. They were able to mobilize because they're actually run like a startup, right? It's essentially, you know, like a dictatorship where they're like, okay, here's the new way we live. If you're not on board with that, um, sorry, there's no debate here. We don't care. I'm gonna weld— you know, in China, they're literally like welding people's doors shut. You're not leaving the house. Oh, you wanted to go over here? Temperature check on your forehead. Nope, go home. Right, like, we're closing all of this down. You know, we're not gonna give you any warning or anything, right? Like, they were able to call a response that frankly we don't have the muscle for nor the stomach to endure.

And that's the cycle.

That's, that's the cycle. And, um, so the way that I, I personally suffer from this as well. So do you, you make money or you have success and you get soft. I like betting it all. I love, I love, um, putting myself in situations to where the risk of failure is strong. Um, and I personally love that stuff. And so I think this week you have to find ways to put yourself in a corner where you have to fight otherwise.

So I think individuals are going to do that. I think small organizations are going to do that because they're going to be led by people with strong wills like this and with strong mentalities like this. And then they're going to be able to override, you know, if you're alone, you're overriding nobody. If you're in a small group, you're overriding a small group of people. Then as it gets bigger to the big companies and then eventually to the country, I don't think that realistically, I don't think that that's what happens. I think what happens is what you're talking about, where hard times make strong people. That's what's been happening in other parts of the world, and they've just been getting sort of stronger and stronger and living with a certain level of toughness and a certain level of non-complacency. And so they will thrive during the hard times in ways that we will not. That's sort of my my pessimistic view.

You have to have that underdog mentality.

Um, and that's hard. It's hard to create that fake. Um, I'm all— dude, I'm always referencing history. Here's another one. Ted Turner did the same thing, was he would always pick up enemy— I mean, these are just like basic strategies, uh, for like war and leadership, which is you, you always have to act like you're the underdog, right?

I love it. I love these types of conversations, um, and learning. I mean, you watch— I guess you definitely watch the Jordan stuff. We're gonna have to talk— I don't want to talk about it today, but we're gonna have to because that's similar to a lot of this stuff.

For sure, for sure. All right, let's pick another topic on this thing.

Let's talk on deck. No. Yeah, On Deck. Okay. And then Oatly.

Okay, let's do On Deck. All right, so do you know what On Deck is?

Yeah, so it's beyonddeck. Is that the website?

That's the handle, but yeah.

I think it's beyonddeck.com. They went to Y Combinator. So I have friends that work with them and they're confusing. Like their website, I think is dumb, but people like the product. So it's a small, critique.

So, okay, so let's explain what it is. So, okay, so Beyond Deck was started by Eric Thornberg. Eric Thornberg was one of the early employees at Product Hunt. I think he was employee number 1, and he helped Ryan kind of build the community, host events. He's just kind of jack-of-all-trades guy. So Product Hunt was such a big deal in the tech industry that, uh, Eric got extremely well connected. And so he started doing several things. Um, I would say he parlayed his position, which was like, you know, Product Hunt was a cool company, but it wasn't this massive success. It wasn't Facebook or Google. They exited, I think, for $20 million to AngelList, which was about the same valuation that their investors had invested in them at. So it wasn't this home run, grand slam type of outcome, but it was definitely a good product. But what Eric did was he parlayed his position as just employee/community builder at Product Hunt into Today, he has a fund called Village Global, which has like, I don't know, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates as LPs in his fund. It's like pretty insane. And so he raised a giant fund, he invests in companies, and then he started this thing called On Deck, which was one of several experiments he was doing. Now, what On Deck is, is you're an employee at a tech company, you're thinking about what's next for you, you want to go start a company, so you're on deck for your next opportunity. And what he did was, it was like a set of meetups and an online educational program. So basically, it's a bunch of meetups where you might meet your new co-founders or hear ideas to get, you know, help you get ideas for what's next, or meet people that you're going to work on— work with your— or sorry, that'll be the founding team of your startup. And then also they do like speaker series so you can like learn about stuff. So it's kind of like a— that's how it started. In fact, I hosted the first, I don't know, 5 On Deck events at my office. And so I literally was there from, you know, event 1, I think, of the program. And it was like, okay, this is kind of cool. Like, this guy works at Coinbase today and he says he wants to leave and go start a company. Interesting. What's he thinking about? Maybe that would be a good— maybe he's looking for a technical co-founder and here's this engineer that wants to work with him. So I kind of wrote it off as like, I don't know, it's like a meetup.

It's kind of like, yeah, it's like a founder dating type of thing.

That idea had been around before, co-founder dating, I think it was called founder dating, something like that.

Yeah. So I was like, okay, whatever, which I think is so stupid as well.

That sounds great. I should steal that.

Then he— so he's got 1,000 people paying $1,000 a month to be a part of On Deck's like batches.

Well, you said 1,000 people at $1,000 a month.

Okay. So to sum it up, it's just a network, right?

It's a network of other people who are also looking to start companies.

Okay. For sure. That can be a good business. I mean, that's just Vistage. That's just YPO. Um, so for sure, that's a, that's a, that business could be large. Um, Hmm, what do I think of it? I'm mixed. If they stay like this niche thing, like only for startup entrepreneurs, I don't know, can that be big enough? Is that VC-funded big enough?

You know, it's hard to say, right? Because a lot of these things that are catering— you know, when people started making developer tools, it's like, okay, how big is that? Then that turned turned out to be really massive, because it turns out there's a lot of devs and they all make money and they can pay for things. And then on the other side, you have like AngelList, which is essentially— AngelList is LinkedIn for the startup community. And AngelList is now like a multi-billion dollar company.

Well, but that's not how AngelList doesn't make— AngelList doesn't make money from job— or LinkedIn makes money because they have 200 million people who use it, and then they make money from job placements, they make money from software via their subscriptions via their, um, yes, LinkedIn, LinkedIn, from advertising recruiters basically.

And, uh, AngelList is amazing for jobs. They don't charge for it currently, or they have A-List, which they charge for just a small— it's like a— that's their first attempt at charging for it. But AngelList is already, I think, placing more startup jobs than any other network, uh, that's focused on startup jobs. AngelList's job platform is amazing. I only— if I hire, I only hire off AngelList jobs.

Am I being a hater? Could this be big?

I— so here's why I don't think it's going to be big. So the reason why I don't think that it would be big is that Starting a Company is not capturing the startup community, it's capturing the founder community. For every company you have, you know, hundreds of employees, but you only have 1 to 2 founders. And so they're capturing just the sort of 2% of the startup community, which is 2% of the overall job market.

Yeah, which is small.

That's why that's small. Now, their revenue could come not from just people paying for the cohort, it could come from other things. They could be investing in this and this could be like a— it's like a pre-YC, right? Because you're actually finding the startups before they've even formed. And so you could get first dibs, you can get very cheap options on startups that come out of this. That's dependent on how good of talent you get in.

Matchmaking and starting a company with somebody?

Yeah, that's stupid. And so I think if someone's like, yeah, I want to meet other people to start a company with, I think that in general, and I rarely try to say it's always bad because there's definitely— it could. In general, I think that is incredibly stupid.

I actually agree with that. I agree with you 100%. I think that's suboptimal.

Yes, it's not. It only works if it's like an Indian marriage where it's like, all right, fine, we are being assigned, we're in, there is no outs. Yeah. If that is the case, then yes, I think, I think that in some— like, are your parents—

were they—

my parents were arranged, yes. And I think that a lot— I don't know, I'm just— you would obviously know way more than I do, but I think that if you arrange marriages, I think could be— I bet a lot of them could be very happy.

Yeah, the success rate is pretty much on par with the American marriage success rate, which is both poor, like both of them 50% divorce rate or whatever. Um, and it's also weird cause you can't measure marital happiness in any way. You only measure divorce and Indian people don't want to get divorced because of cultural taboos. So their divorce rate is lower. They're more willing to, they're more willing to stay in an unhappy marriage than an American.

Yeah. And I don't know how like the whole culture like regards like abuse and like if you should leave or should not leave. So like it's a whole sticky thing that I'm not even going to get into. But my point is, is that when you don't have an option, then yeah, if it's like, alright, we're in this together no matter what, then that is interesting. But for, if you're going to this thing like, oh, I'm gonna meet another person to start a company with, I think that is stupid.

Yes.

I don't support that at all.

Right, so better way is to start your company, take people you've already worked with or at the company you're at right now, like find the star person in your company and spin out with them. Or, you know, just start working on it alone, but talk about what you're doing and great people will come to you. And, you know, filter them, and then if anybody really is at that level, go ahead and make them a co-founder. Or find somebody who you believe is sort of like a domain expert, or you think could be that person, and then date them for a while. So don't start a company with them right away, just start talking to them, talking to them very frequently, and maybe work on some side projects together before you go all the way.

Yeah, that's why I always thought that Y Combinator was Weird. I mean, I think it's great, but if they do something like where they're like, you meet someone and like, oh, this doesn't work and just pick a new idea and you only have 3 months. I'm like, no, fuck that.

So where did you find your co-founder for The Hustle?

Um, so, okay. So my story was I moved here from San Francisco or sorry, from Nashville.

I rented—

No, not a chance. I rented an Airbnb and it was the cheapest one in the city and it was John Havel.. And I was currently, I was, came out to start something and I would, he would just be up at night, like talking to people who, cause he had this idea that he was working on. And eventually I go, hey John, can I just like work with you on free time? Like I'm here, I'm going to go get an apartment full-time, but like, you just want to like keep riffing on this. And so we did. And so after 2 or 3 months he was like, all right, you're now my partner in this business. And then I left, or we did it, we had an exit. And then I went and started The Hustle and I started working on it by myself for a year or something. And I go, John, you want to come and join this with me? Got it. So it was serendipity.

Right. But by the time you started The Hustle, you'd already worked with the guy before for years. You sort of knew what you were getting into, and for better or for worse, right? But like, you weren't just matching at a meetup and saying, "Hey, you wanna do one of the most intense experiences of our lives together?" You actually knew the guy beforehand.

And for the record, my next company, if I ever start another company, who knows if it lasts forever, if we sell it, okay? I, um, I won't have a co-founder next time. Okay, I'll either do one of these things: if I have a co-founder, then they will be the majority owner and I'll be a silent partner and I won't work on it that much, but I'll fund it or be like an idea guy. Or I'm not gonna have a partner and I'm just gonna pay everyone's salary and I'm just gonna own it all.

And why is that? So a lot of people will say the opposite, right? YC won't, you know, historically doesn't take even solo founders. So Why would you want to do it solo? Some people say that's hard. Some people say it's lonely. You know, why would you do it next time?

Right. Yeah. I do think that's the right fit for you. I think that's your personality. And I think that you'll probably win more that way.

And some people are good at collaborating, but I also think that what we were talking about with China and America is, uh, it's not unfortunately or fortunately, most of the time cool things that happen fast, it comes because one person is dictating what everyone needs to do, right?

So like me with my co-founder last, uh, uh, like for Bebo—

who was your co-founder for Bebo?

Well, Furkan became my co-founder essentially. So I initially recruited him, hired him, but over time, you know, within that first year, I promoted him up to CTO. We spun off the company where the other CTO was, and I was like, look, you run this other company we have this guy's now my CTO.

Was it a 50/50 split?

Uh, no, it wasn't 50/50 split exactly, but, um, but actually when we sold, um, I made sure that he got exactly what I got.

So, okay, I can, I can deal with that.

I evened it out later, um, which was cool because I had the option, right? But he had done so much, I didn't feel right taking more than his share.

I think that's the way to go, which is like, you are the boss, but then when it all comes down to it, you, you split the winnings.

But I guess what I would say is the, um I agree with you that you want it to be where you could be pretty ruthless and you can be very, you know, dogmatic in how things are going to go. But I was lucky enough to find somebody who is also that way. And so we were so aligned and we were so similar in our personality on those in that way that it was like, oh, great. Like, we both think of this the same way. So it's like a 2x multiplier. It's like both of us are saying this to everybody in the company. And so it was an even louder message. And then I got the benefit of like, hey, now I can start companies that are deep technology companies because that's where this guy's super strong. And on his side, he's like, hey, I can, you know, build a bigger organization because this guy knows how to run an organization. I can do something that needs sales, this guy knows how to do sales.

And so if—

yeah, I mean, it's amazing. If he was like, yo, you want to do this? I'd be like, all right, let's do it. And if I did the same, great. We could also do things independently, but like I told him, I was like, you know, we need to be in business together for the next 20 years. We need to be working together, investing together, partnering up on different stuff. Like, it's rare to find somebody like this. You got to take advantage when you have it.

I think that's the way to go. I also think though, if you're going to do— if you have that person, there has to be a boss. And so there are times, like, if I were to start, like, if I had a FurCon like you, which I do, and Adam, um, I say, all right, I'm the, I'm the owner. Or, and I'm okay with this, is you are the owner. Yeah, you're the owner. And I'll do what you say. But like, in that case, I will say, here's what I think's best. And if they— and they say what they think is best, I'll just fucking go ahead and do what they want. And I think that is needed.

Yeah, I think co-founder is very different than co-CEO. Co-CEO, I personally believe in. I have some friends who've done it. They say good things, but I'm not that way.

That's not how a lot of people start companies. They start companies which like, all right, we are—

we make decisions together.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, someone's got to know who's You gotta have a boss, and there's one guy, and they make the decisions, and they consult with people, but at the end of the day, they call the shots, and I'm fine being the number 2, and I'm fine being the number 1.

Okay, cool. So, all right, let's move on. So, Ondeck, we think it's moderately interesting. I'm impressed they got this far. I guess my last word would be, Eric's not running it. He has another guy running it. I don't know who that guy is.

I just looked him up.

I think Eric, I like Eric. I think he's a nice guy, and I think he's, parlayed what he had into much more, and I give him mad props for that. But at the same time, like, he's had 5 good ideas but tried to execute on all 5 and put operators in place for each one. And I think there's like, you don't skip to level 10, you don't just get to be black belt right away, and you got to sort of earn your operational excellence. Like, go build one of these ideas into something massive first, and then like start trying to be, you know, somebody with a portfolio of things who's, you know, putting operators in place and sort of like, I don't know, I just feel like On Deck could be great. I would feel much better about it if Eric was like, Eric who started it, was like, this is my thing, I'm gonna make this a success, I'm gonna work on this like a maniac. But I think he's just starting a bunch of things that all sound good. And then I don't know where the follow-through is.

That's my— actually, I completely agree with you. And that's a great thing that we can bring up for the listeners, which is I get pitched on a fairly basis to invest in stuff, and me and you both invested into our good friend. And the first question we asked him was, is this your full-time job?

Right, because he's that same way, right? He has lots of good cool things, he spins them up, and then he spins up another thing and another thing, and they all sound good. But like, where's the— like, for any of these to achieve that big vision, the follow-through has to be so fucking strong, right?

And if someone says like, oh no, it's like part-time, or I'll go full-time eventually, I'm like, all right, Just, I'm out. You let me know if you're full-time. So I think that if people do want to start stuff like you can't, it's not— some people do it. Like there are people who have pulled this off rarely though. You have to be all in. And if you're like doing it part-time, I think you're a punk.

Yeah. And maybe I'm projecting because I've made this mistake before, but because I've made the mistake, I kind of know the mistake. And so that's where I'm like, oh,, you know, trying to juggle or trying to just be like, yeah, I, I had this idea, I started it, I'm the chairman. That's always the code word when it's like, uh, when you're at work sometimes, but not all the time, you're the chairman of a 5-person company, which means nothing. It means you have a lot of equity and you're not doing jack shit. Um, so, so it's like, oh, I'm the chairman and this guy's the CEO. It's like, okay, who's that guy? And like, why don't you, if this is so good, why don't you believe in it enough to spend your time on it? Like, There are people who pull it off. They're more the exception than the rule. And I think those people have put in their time of being the maniac building their company before and have done so much operations that they know how to actually delegate and hire good people to be their operators. But if you've never done the operations yourself in any company and built it up and like been that maniac to like to have a big win, can you really do this? I don't know. I sort of have doubts.

No, I agree.

Let's talk about Clubhouse. Do you know Clubhouse?

Yeah, I used it on Friday and Saturday. It's okay.

So let's explain. So, all right, so this last week or so, at least that's when it came into my world, maybe it's been going on longer than that, but last week or so, it seems like everybody with a pulse in Silicon Valley started using this app called Clubhouse at the same time. What is Clubhouse? You go look in the App Store. Okay, you're not gonna find it, right? Clubhouse is only in beta. It's a test, it's like test flight only. So you can only get it if you join the test flight, which you gotta get a link from a friend. Yeah. You gotta get a link. You gotta have this special Apple app that lets you test things that are not in the app store yet. That sort of thing. So what is Clubhouse? So basically it's like a, um, it's like audio channel. Like let's actually open it up real quick.

And dude, I just got, I literally, as we're talking, just got a text from my friend and he goes, hey, were you on Clubhouse last night?

Right, no, I wasn't. And, uh, but that's hilarious that that's what was happening. Okay, so like there's a room. Okay, so the heavy hitters are not on right now, but last night, you know, Reid Hoffman has joined Clubhouse, like the founder of like LinkedIn. Um, the, you know, the top people from Quora, the founders of, you know, like Dave Moran from Path, Naval from AngelList.

He just said Mark Zuckerberg was on it.

Yeah, I don't know if that's the real Zuck or not. I sort of doubt it, but you know, Jaden Smith I saw was on it. Uh, Jared Leto's on it. So basically There's a bunch of, I don't even wanna call them big names because that's an insult to like athletes and celebrities and musicians, but like, you know, in our dork world of tech Twitter, there's big names on this thing. And what it is, is it's like a chat room where you go on and you can be either on mic where you're one of the 5 people talking, or you could be in the audience and you're just listening and there's nothing to do, you just sit there. So it's kinda cool, you get to be a fly on the wall. This is very similar to a product I built called Blab, so I was having flashbacks like crazy the whole time. And it was started by this guy who created an app called Highlight. Did you ever play with Highlight back in the day?

Years ago.

So Highlight was— so one time Twitter took— so Twitter took off at South by Southwest, the big conference in Austin. That's where Twitter really hit escape velocity out of Silicon Valley to like the mainstream, and everybody was using it. And then the next year, Foursquare— or, you know, maybe I have those flipped— but one year Foursquare was the big hit of South by Southwest. Everybody's checking into places, and Foursquare was the shit. Then every social app was like, yo, what's our South by Southwest strategy? We got to launch at South by. That's what Twitter did. That's what Foursquare did. Then Highlight comes out. Highlight was like this networking app where you could see people around you. It was location-based. You see them, you see their profile, and then you can give them a high five or whatever to say hi to them. It was like a Tinder for professional kind of networking. You're just seeing people around you. It was big at South by because everybody was in one place, and then when everyone went home, Nobody used Highlight anymore. So it started by the guy who did that.

And it sold.

Did Highlight sell?

I think.

Well, it definitely was—

Not for a lot.

It definitely busted, yeah. It was not, like, it didn't work. So anyways, this guy's back, he's got this new app Clubhouse and it's popping off right now. And so on one hand, you know, the inner hater in me went in and was like, this is nothing, this sucks. Also, I see all these reasons why this thing's gonna fail, but then at the same time I'm like, You get zero points for predicting a new social app will fail because they're all going to fail. It's like saying it's not going to be a tsunami today. It's like, oh wow, what a great prediction. Predicting it's going to fail really wasn't cool. Then I went the other way. I was like, all right, what is cool about this? I was on it one night and Naval, who's the founder of AngelList and probably one of the few people— I don't want to say I look up to, but I've learned a lot from. Tons of books out there. His book Venture Hacks is amazing if anyone wants to raise money. It's like a founder's bible for how to not get screwed by VCs when you raise money. Venture Hacks. And so then he started AngelList, which I think is a badass company. And then, you know, he's had his podcast and sort of he's turned into like a Buddhist philosopher of tech recently. So anyways, this guy's awesome. I learned a lot from him. And he was sitting up there and like Naval is so like in demand in tech that you could email him and it's nearly impossible to get a meeting with this guy. If I said, hey Naval, can I get an hour of your time to just talk to you? You wanna get a coffee? He couldn't type fuck you in caps lock enough to not do that. But on Clubhouse, he was just sitting there and he was begging people to come talk to him. He was like, yeah, who wants to chat? He was talking to the guy who started Path, that guy had to go, and he's like, who wants to talk? And so I just jumped in. I clicked the button, now I'm in the hot seat, and he's like, okay, shoot.

Oh, you talked to him?

Yeah, he's like, Sean, like, what's up? What's your question? I was like, I don't really have a question, you know, because, you know, I could tell it had started to turn into the Naval celebrity hour where people would come on, even like other super successful millionaires in Silicon Valley were coming on and be like, hey Naval, you know, long time fan, just wanted to ask what's your opinion on Bitcoin? Or like, you know, stupid questions like that. So I tried not to do that, but anyways, I ended up shooting the shit with Naval for like, you know, 45 minutes Um, and it was awesome. And so I was like, okay, I got my value out of Clubhouse. This thing's going to go to shit eventually, but for now—

There's honestly, there's been, I'm not just saying this because we built Blab, which was extremely similar, but there's been like 5 other apps that were exactly this. The difference is they didn't have the personal networks to get every VC and founder in Silicon Valley on the app at once. And also, it's in beta.

Who gives a fuck about every VC and founder in Silicon Valley? Fuck those guys. I don't give a shit about those people. I want some nerd in Missouri, or I want some good-looking kid who's 17 and wears Vans and cool hoodies to use it, and I want them to dance in front of their friends.

That's what you want. As a founder, that's what you want. As a user, I don't think you would care if a nerd in Missouri is using it. You wouldn't care to tune in, right?

Yeah, I would, dude. I use TikTok all the time. All these 18-year-olds are like so freaking good looking and dancing and are all funny. Like, I love that shit. They're awesome. I love watching these kids.

On TikTok, that's cool. When it's just audio and it's just somebody talking, it's way less interesting when it's just a random person talking about a random thing. So I think, yeah, you know, if it's TikTok and they've curated the one amazing video by an average person, that's what TikTok is, right? Like the feed is taking millions of videos and saying, okay, what is the 0.01% of these that are entertaining? Cool, we'll put these on a feed for you. When it's Clubhouse and you just open it up, it's like, oh, who's talking right now? Let me just take my chances. You know, you're— it's not gonna be that interesting.

So, so I just, I just texted Lance and I asked him if he wanted to do a talk on there with me. So I was, I want to take advantage of this TikTok or what's Clubhouse. Like, let's see if that works.

Yeah, exactly. He might not be able to get it. Like, uh, now they have a link. Well, they've gated it now. So now if you try to get in, I think you have to like fill out a form and they're not taking any more people in the beta or something like that. I don't know, but whatever. Anyways, I think it's interesting. Um, and yeah, I had a, had a fun, fun chat.

My opinion is— that's my opinion.

Someone— this is the analysis that people come here for.

Yeah, but Alan just made fun of me because I said I love these good-looking kids. I mean like cute, not like hot.

Like, yeah, that's way better.

Like, they got like— they got fucking cool haircuts and they wear bright hoodies and they're just like cool looking kids. Like that Rapid Khalid Like, since when did every kid get a high top, like a, like a, like an uptown fade and wear like, uh, Vans? Like they're all just cool looking. That's what I'm talking about.

That's what I'm talking about.

All right, I'm gonna cut you off before, before you get arrested. Okay.

Let's talk about Oatly. Um, dude, I've been drinking Oatly and Oatly is the shit. Do you drink Oatly?

You know, that stuff spikes your blood sugar just as much as normal milk and like a can of soda.

Yeah, okay, I don't know. I don't really care about that as much, but I don't normally drink milk, but I do drink Oatly now and it's delicious and fuck milk in comparison. Why would anybody drink milk when this stuff exists? It's way better. Better tasting, it's better for you, it's better for the environment, so it's better in all regards.

It's okay.

Dude, have you had it? Have you drank it? Have you had some cereal with it?

Yeah, dude, it just tastes like almond milk. I mean, yeah, it's fine enough. It's fine.

It's amazing and also the people of Spain spoken, because Oatly is like spiking through the roof. So they went from— so the story is that the backstory is pretty crazy. Do you know the company story?

No, but we covered it in Trends like 3 months ago. We're like, oat milk is going to just go through the roof.

So it tastes great. It tastes great, I think. But, uh, I'm an almond milk guy. It tastes great. I think that I was reading some work on it and they were saying some person was testing their glucose, their blood glucose, and they're like, it spikes super high with Oatly versus almond milk. So that's why To me, it's like I have to do more research before I make my final decision for myself, but it's almost like it's the Beyond Burger of milk, which is like it's supposed to look healthy, but in reality, it's like kind of bullshit.

Well, I don't think they're saying it's healthy. They're saying it's healthy in two regards. One is there's a huge percentage of people that are lactose intolerant, and so they need to be drinking alternative milks. Right now, 1 in 10 people drink alternative milks versus real milk. And then of those, of the 10% that drink alternative milks, again, only 10% or less are drinking oat milk. The rest are drinking soy or almond milk. My understanding is that oat is better for you than the soy or almond milk. I might be wrong, so correct me if I'm wrong. But point is, all these alt milks are gonna continue to grow like crazy. Oatly is the best of the oat milks, and the sales back it up. And then if you have time, watch the talk of the creative director, this guy named John. Just search John Oatly and then search that on YouTube. And he gives a talk at this conference called Slush, and he tells the story of rebranding Oatly and all the different crazy stuff they did to rebrand it and how they were trying to market it. And then the milk industry, which he's like, you know, you think the gun industry in America is bad? Check out the dairy industry in Sweden. Like, these guys are, you know, ruthless and they're powerful. And so he's like, They went on this campaign against the dairy industry, and every time the dairy industry tried to crush them or hurt them in any way, they just made a big fuss about it. They would take out full-page ads saying what the dairy industry is trying to do to them, and it just made them more popular. They just got more and more popular over time, and now they're just sort of— literally can't keep up with the demand. I think Oatly is kind of amazing. If I could invest in Oatly, I would, and I tried to. I actually messaged them. And they were like, hey, we're not currently taking investors. And I was like, okay, well just, you know, take my money somehow, please. I need to be involved in this company. I believe in this company.

And that's it. Amazing.

And the founder said that once the packaging changed to that, it took off, which is proof just about how important all this shit is. I always say distribution versus product. Distribution's more important than product.

Yeah. Yeah, the wrapping of the product was more important than what was inside the wrapper in their case.

Yeah, and it's like a good thing, but it's not any different than 10 other things. Right. All right, you wanna talk about one more thing?

Yeah, pick one.

Let's do, I don't wanna talk about, okay, yeah, what's that?

What's what, Fast Grants?

Fastgrants.org.

Okay, cool, this is not the sexiest idea, but I think it's very cool and good for the world. So I think the founder of Stripe is the one who created this, so John Collison.

Oh, I saw that.

I'm looking at it. Wow.

They're just trying to make science better. And I think this is amazing for the world. I think this is the type of thing that rich people should do when you do hit the tech lottery. I think this is an amazing way to— pay it forward in a way that's not just charity, and fixing a pretty broken system, which is the scientific grant system.

Tell your friend Eric at Beyond Deck to apply. He's an academic institution at this point, right? I feel like the school of stay up par and shop puris is in session every Tuesday and Thursday. Maybe we should apply.

Well, that's what I was talking to Naval about, actually, was, I was like, yeah, here's what I want to do. I want to fix education. Here's how I'm thinking about it. You know, what do you think? And, um, and that's what we kind of shot the shit on for 30 minutes. And then 10 minutes was me explaining this one really degenerate, uh, crypto trade I'm doing right now.

Which is what— that's what I care about, Sean. He's like, you had me at degenerate.

He's like, you're insane. And I was like, yeah, well, you know, I think I'm not insane. He's like, no, I think you're insane. I was like, okay, maybe I should reconsider this. Basically, Furkan showed me this awesome thing.

Oh, okay. This is how it starts.

And I was like, oh yeah, this makes sense to me. I mean, okay. So here's what I'm, here's what we're doing right now. So he started showing me the world of DeFi. Do you even know what DeFi is? I bet you don't even know what DeFi is.

No. So just for the listeners, I think people don't understand how basic I am. And I think you understand that, but I'm pretty basic as fuck. Yeah.

And I actually think I don't even know it. Right. And as I start to explain it, somebody who understands DeFi is gonna be like, this schmuck trying to explain something he doesn't understand. But, um, that's who I am. I learn 20% of things and I'm like, oh, this is interesting, I'm gonna start learning about it, using it, and talking about it before I— like, that's how I learn it. So anyways, he started telling me about DeFi and I was like, what is that? So DeFi is decentralized finance. So basically what happened is, uh, here's how crypto has come along, right? Bitcoin comes out, people are like, this shit's going to change the world. Bitcoin goes on this crazy price roller coaster. Then some people are like, oh my God, cryptocurrency, of course, genius. This is all open source code for blockchain? Okay, copy paste, Litecoin, copy paste, Dogecoin, and they started just spinning up other random currencies. Then all these altcoins existed. Now, one guy who was pretty legit, this guy Vitalik, was like, okay, I like this Bitcoin thing, but he created Ethereum.

And for the listeners, go and Google this guy. If there's any person who I trust to create a great currency, it's someone who looks like him. I used to say, when this whole Bitcoin IPO thing was going on, it was all these bros with abs in the Ferraris. I'm like, if you have a six-pack and/or a fancy car, you should not be doing this.

Yeah, you're fucking out. I do not trust you.

You're out. You have to have huge ears that stick out, bags on your eyes, and a super skinny neck. Otherwise, I'm out.

If your beard is not connected to your chest hair, I do not trust your anarchism. It takes to build a great crypto ecosystem.

Totally. Like, yeah, they're like, do you bet your body weight? If yes, I'm out. So like, I'm just not interested in that.

So I am the exact same way. I saw Vitalik and I literally judged the book by its cover. I was like, oh, I think this is the next Mark Zuckerberg. I'm going to buy Ethereum. Okay, so that worked. So Ethereum ran up in price like crazy. Ethereum did the first ICO, which was an IPO for a currency. Or IPO for a digital asset. It was priced at, I think, $17. Anybody could have invested in that. Today, Ethereum trades for $180. It has gone up as high as $1,000. The best investment of the last decade was just buying Bitcoin early on. The second best, I think, was Ethereum. Of all tech or startup investments, that would have been the best thing, and anybody could have done it at any given time for the first few years of their existence. Anyhow, Ethereum is like a platform. The idea with Ethereum is, hey, we're like Bitcoin is a great— Bitcoin is like digital gold. Fantastic. You should just buy it and hold it. It's a store of value. It's not going to inflate. That's the rules of Bitcoin. It cannot be manipulated by governments. You can't just print a new trillion Bitcoin like they just printed a new $6 trillion. That's Bitcoin. Ethereum was like, hey, money should be programmable. Why can't we make a contract, a smart contract that says, When I send you this file, unlock the money, you put the money in escrow, you wire your Ethereum here, when I send you this file, and you click validate, then it unlocks the money. We don't need all these middlemen to do transactions. Why can't we do smart contracts? Why can't we mint new coins, all that sort of thing? Anyways, fast forward to DeFi. The crypto wave has crashed, right? Bitcoin went up to $20K, now it's down to $6K. A lot of the speculators and a lot of the hype is gone. There was a period of time where you could turn on CNBC and they had a permanent Bitcoin price above the whole stock market ticker was a giant Bitcoin price 24/7. That's how mainstream it went. Now, I would say—

Dude, fucking Katy Perry was taking Instagram pictures talking about it.

Floyd Mayweather was like, hey, I love blah, blah, blah coin. It's hot, get in. That was the wave. That crashed. And so all that's left is the true believers who weren't in it for the money anyways, and the total degenerate gamblers, and then who are like too deep in the hole to get out.

Which I love. I want to be around those people.

What those people have done over the last few years is kind of amazing. So they rebuilt all of the financial infrastructure of the real world in this crypto world, in the digital asset world. So for example, there's exchanges, okay, just like the stock market exchange, but they're open 24/7, and, um, you know, they don't close, close for the weekends type of thing. Then there's lending platforms. Then there's stablecoins, which are always pegged to the $1, so you can use them as an intermediate currency and not worry about volatility. People just built layers of prediction markets. Everything you have in the traditional financial infrastructure has been rebuilt through what they call DeFi. Now, it's definitely not perfect. In fact, just 2 days ago, one of them got hacked, because again, they're not a centralized org, they can't just stop things, they can't reverse things.

So what's your trade?

I think this is just a horrible idea.

So did Naval. Naval was like, wait a minute, hold on, let me get this straight. So you are, uh, betting— you're taking Ethereum, which is a highly volatile asset and you're staking it, and then you're borrowing a currency and you're putting it into startups, this highly illiquid asset. Like, whoa, that's crazy. And I was like, yeah, it's a little bit crazy, but, um, you know, here's the reality of it. This is like, I'm not betting my retirement account on this. This is, uh, you know, like an amount of play money for me that like is not gonna— it could all go to zero. I expect the startup to go to zero, Ethereum could go to zero. Like, I wouldn't be in any— my life would not change if this all went to zero. But, uh, both of them I believe in long term. I believe in these startups long term, and I believe in Ethereum long term. And if I would have otherwise invested in both of these anyways, then this is a, um, a slightly riskier way to do it, but it frees up more cash for me to do other things. So that's my take on it.

I don't even know where to begin on that.

What don't you like about it? Let's talk about it.

I'd rather just put my money in Marriott Like, I just don't understand why. I, I— okay, so I think that to me it's like what you just did is the reason why I buy gadgets. It would be far easier just to have a normal light, but I want to try all these new lights because it's exciting for me to try new stuff. If that's your reasoning for why you did it, then okay, cool. But if you're doing this to make money, I think it's just stupid.

I'm on board with that, which is you're doing this for fun.

I'm not doing it exactly for fun. I'm doing it to learn. And also, from what I understand right now, these are not just learning— and most people think about learning, you go buy a thing, you're never going to get your money back, you're just going to get the learning. This is where you're going to get the learning and you might make money. There's no book that's like that where you go buy the book for $20, you have no chance of getting $32 back out of it. You're trying to get the information and then go do something else with that. In this case, I'm going to get the learning by actually using the tools, and I might make money. Because the assets themselves, Ethereum might go up, or my startups might actually appreciate in value, that sort of thing. I believe it's a parlay.

I think, like, I am— I— that what you just described is so complicated. I don't even know how to— like, I just— it's so out of my element. It'd be like you speak— it'd be like, what don't you— it's like, what don't you understand? It's like, why— I don't— I don't speak Spanish. I don't know. I mean, I don't even know what I don't know. Like, I just— I can't— like, when someone talks to me about certain stuff, I'm like, You just spoke French, right?

Yeah, we might need to edit this out of the podcast because it might just have been too convoluted for anyone to even understand. But the thing I would say is, like, the way you're confused, I was confused the first time Furkan told me. And then I spent one week just trying to learn all these tools. I put literally $50 into a MetaMask account and then Compound Finance, and I did a trade. I tried to see how does this all work.

Oh my God, so you're doing it again, dude.

Like, what I'm saying is it took me a week to get to where I am now, and I'm still like total beginner.

But like, you know, I don't even know what like futures are, or like when people talk about options and like shorting a stock, I'm like, I just don't know what that means.

Yeah, I'm very, very similar. But I don't know, now I've taken the opinion that every time I didn't know what these things meant, it's cost me money. I remember when I was first being told about Bitcoin and I didn't take the time to go figure out what the hell this is, it cost me money because I was behind. Furkan bought into Ethereum at the ICO At $17. And so, you know, he's doing all this with, you know, he's, he's already made 50x, 20x on his investment. And so, you know, he's doing—

I get that, I get that. And it's— if that interests you and that's what you want to be an expert in, then you should do that. I just think that I'm better at other stuff and I can make 50x on a bunch of shit.

Uh, I would correct one thing. I'm not trying to be an expert at it, and I'm not— I don't think that's the goal. I don't even think that would be the right goal. Um, the goal is to just get a basic understanding and a fundamental understanding of it so that I could be aware as this evolves. Because this is where a lot of growth is going to happen. I know that. I know that this is where a lot of growth is going to happen. And so I would rather be able to at least speak the language and understand it at a very basic level than just be completely ignorant to it because, you know, uh, you know, I just— it's hard.

I wonder what the listeners are going to say.

So tell me this, where do you think you can make 50x your money?

It's not Marriott. What?

It's not Marriott.

I can't make 50. I probably, I can make 50x if I get incredibly lucky in investing in a startup, but that's incredibly unlikely.

But something you understand?

It's, I kinda, well enough, but what I for sure can do is create like a, create a business. I can create a course. I can create, I can do some type of internet marketing thing that I can make a lot of money. Sure. I could just say I'm available. I charge $1,000 an hour and I'll do copywriting. That's not 50x because it's my time. So that's not like, that's not like, I mean, I can make hundreds of thousands, probably millions of dollars a year just doing like consulting, I think.

But how much are you going to learn doing that? Right?

Like, and I wouldn't enjoy it. I would not enjoy it. I would not learn. I mean, maybe I would learn, I would learn something.

To me, that's cashing in selling your mastery chips, that's saying I'm the teacher and I'll teach at a certain rate. Yes. And I'm just much more interested in being in the student chair than the teacher's chair. Right. So like, how do I— I don't want to be a master selling mastery chips. I want to be a beginner buying beginner chips.

I agree. What you're saying just doesn't interest me. That's why I don't care.

Yeah. This topic might just be dry and boring.

I don't— let's have the listeners tell us if they think it's dry and boring. I don't know if I don't— I think a lot of people are interested in it.

I think a lot of people are going to feel the way you felt and the way I felt the first time I heard this, which was like, oh my God, like, this sounds interesting, but I just don't even understand what's actually happening here. And maybe I'll do like a breakdown of like—

sometimes when you talk about leading the blind course, I feel like self-conscious. I'm like, oh my God, I am just not smart.

Yeah.

I'm like, is like, whenever you talk about like options, I'm like—

in fact, that actually happened to me. So when I was talking to Deval, so this is actually a good example, right? Talking to a guy who I respect, I actually care what this guy thinks about me. In reality, he doesn't even know me, probably forgot me already today, right? But I had been listening to this guy's podcast, reading his books, followed his company for years. So I cared, I cared about what this guy— if this guy liked me, I would feel good about it. If he disliked me, I feel bad about it. So as I'm telling him this trade, he's telling me I'm insane. Then he's like, hold on, so walk me through this. How does this work? And now he's actually smart enough to understand it.

He didn't—

he hadn't thought of this before, but he was like, he would get it as I was explaining it. Now I only half understand what I'm doing, so I'm half explaining my half understanding to this guy. He's like, okay, so it's like a, you know, a short-dated option trade with a highly liquid— he's saying all these terms and I'm like, um, yeah, that's one way to put it. Now in reality, I don't know if his understanding is correct because I barely—

that's how some people describe it.

I'm definitely gonna be curious to see what the people have to say.

Okay, cool. Let us know what you think. We got some feedback on our very random episode. A couple people liked it.

Was it bad or good?

It was mostly— it was split. So basically there was more people saying good things, but I think that's because we kind of fished for a compliment. And then the other side, there was a few people who were like, hey, just so you know, this last episode was very meandering. I was like, yeah.

Okay, so what we'll do is on Thursday we'll come prepared with loads of stuff to bang out.

Here's what people loved. They loved your beekeeping story and they loved my reaction to it. Like, literally got texts being like, yo, I haven't laughed this hard at a podcast, you know, business, like, non-comedy podcast ever.

Who said they liked the bee story?

But I got 2 texts today about it. I got one text from my friend Mike literally right before we went live, and he goes, what did he say? He goes, Sam talking about bees and you laughing was my favorite moment of the podcast.

Wait, what? What did you laugh at? I don't even remember.

Just when you told me you were a beekeeper. Keeper. I was like, what the fuck? And then you started explaining it and it made no sense to me. You know how you were like, dude, I'm not interested in DeFi. I'm not interested in beekeeping, but you clearly are. And it was that. It was the same dynamic.

So we're going to come with a lot of meat next episode. I personally will come, and I'm sure you will too.

Okay, cool. Uh, all right, so yeah, we're out.