The surprising product that built Italy's richest family
Where I gotta bleep this out, but then he's extremely multi-billionaire.
Extremely multi-billionaire.
Extremely.
I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off on the road. Let's travel. Never look back.
Sam, I have here in front of me a letter that I need to read for you. So I, uh, I open the mail and I see an invitation like this to a graduation. And I think, that's not my cousin. That's not my nephew. Who is this? Dear Sean, my name is Quinton Wood. I've been listening to MFM for, uh, since 2021. Over the last 5 years, you and Sam's podcast has made a huge impact on my life, shaping how I see the world, investing in stocks, my goals, my life. Your podcast brought me a lot of joy and helped me through long runs and study sessions. Uh, you and Sam have directed my life for the better. So thank you. I'm a high school senior this year. And because of the profound impact you've made in my life, I want to invite you to my graduation and graduation party. He lives in Colorado. Thank you for taking the time to read this and everything you do. Keep making more episodes. Sincerely, Quentin Wood, high school senior. Isn't this amazing?
Baller. Baller. Congrats, Quentin.
Take a bow, Quentin. How good is that, man? I love this kid.
If you're under the age of 24, you should do some of these things that might sound insulting. Like if we said that's endearing, or I would never say that's cute, but like you feel like that emotion, you should 100% embrace doing those things because you can only get away with this at a very— for the very small time. And it's totally appropriate and totally awesome.
It's like pooping your pants. You can only do it for so long.
Well, and then you could do it like later in life, but like you, like this type of stuff, uh, 100% is awesome.
And by the way, a lot, okay, a bunch of people have written letters, but just inviting to the high school graduation was so endearing. I just thought, I was like, oh, that's so like, so wonderful. Diego was like, so we're gonna go? I was like, well, no, hell no. We're definitely not going. But I, but I, I will play him the song and, and give him the clap. This is great. Okay, I want to tell you about this, this business story that, that, uh, to me, this is, this is a Billy of the Week. So this is a billionaire family that I found really fascinating. And I've been into these like family dynasties. Last, last week, I think we were talking about Cargill. And this one is—
Wait, can I— I want to try and guess these. I like trying to guess.
Let me give you a couple of clues so you know which direction you're going. The richest man in Italy.
Sunglasses or chocolate?
Chocolate.
Okay.
Do you know who it is?
Yeah. Uh, Roche. Roche. Is it called Roche something? Uh, for our show? Yeah.
So, uh, okay. Well, you got that pretty quick. It's a lot less fun when you just know the answer, huh? If I was a teacher, I would just be like, well, fine. Teach yourself then and walk out of the class. Um, dude, this family story is amazing. So I love Ferrero Rocher, the chocolate. I don't know if you've like, if you're a fan. Do we have one? Oh, here. So if for those who don't know, I have some here. Got this from, uh, from the grocery store this morning because I was so inspired by these guys. I was like, I'm going to go support their small business.
Yeah, he bought local.
He's worth $32 billion. Um, so these chocolates are kind of amazing. The packaging is amazing. If you've ever had one of these, you really feel like you're eating something special. And that got me kind of interested in like, what's the backstory of this? Turns out this family invented Nutella. They invented Tic Tacs. They invented like a whole bunch of Kinder, the Kinder bars and Kinder eggs. They invented like several of these like really big things. And now they own a whole bunch of other businesses. So I want to tell you the story of this, this company that's, it's one of the most secretive family-owned businesses in the world. They do like $20 billion a year in revenue. The founder is the, the, main guy, the, the heir, he runs the company and is the richest man in Italy. And the way they did it, it's really fascinating. So, um, back in the day, this was post— right after World War II, Italy, which was like, you know, not in great shape post-World War II, um, was trying to kind of bounce back. And so this guy, uh, the grandfather of, of this guy, he decides, I'm gonna start, um, making chocolate. Chocolate was really expensive. It was like this luxury. item. It wasn't like a little common thing you found at every store. Not everybody was eating it. And so he starts, and he had the form factor wrong. He was trying to make a bar, like a spread. So it's like butter. It would be like this kind of hard chocolate, like butter stick, essentially. And his idea was like, people will put this on toast, and you'll have like a chocolatey toast.
And I think at the time, like, chocolate was like something like— it was like the equivalent of caviar. Like, if you went to like a fancy dinner party, you would see it. And if I remember correctly, I don't even think it tasted nearly like it tastes now.
It wasn't like— They've just added butter and sugar over the years to the mix. It's like, because if you have like a cacao bean or cacao powder, it's like bitter. It's like very bitter, right? So, so you really have to like butter and sugar it up. So he tries the bar. People don't like it. They're complaining. They're like, it's too hard, doesn't spread easily. So he's like, okay, I got to solve the spread problem. And he comes up with a jar with like a creamy chocolate, like a jam, basically. And it's like a precursor to Nutella. It wasn't quite Nutella yet. But the idea was like, make it super spreadable, put it in a jar, and it was called Super Crema. And so he starts trying to sell Super Crema and it's doing okay. It's him. He's like the chef and he's just trying to make like delicious pastries basically. And he's got the brother who's the business side and they're doing all right. Not great. But over time, the son takes over and the son is a bit more of an innovator. So first, I think the government like bans the use of Crema in the name. So he's got to rebrand it anyways. And he decides to call it Nutella. And it was because hazelnuts are a big ingredient for the thing. And he makes it, he tweaks the recipe, makes it better. And the son starts innovating. He gets in the lab and he basically creates— he notices that breath mints are great, but there's all these problems. They come in these like big tins, hard to carry around, right? This like big giant rectangle. To open it up, you had to like kind of find the seam and pop it open. And then, you know, if you wanted to like share it with somebody, they had to like dig through, touch all of them. And so he creates the Tic Tac form factor. So way easier to open, smaller box, smaller form factor. And the ads were all like one person's hand out and then putting a Tic Tac in. And it was basically like a Tic Tac was almost like a social gift. It was a social icebreaker, something you want from somebody else. So carrying it was almost like a thing of power.
These old Tic Tac ads are so good. If you Google vintage Tic Tac Italian ads, the old ads are like Pretty awesome.
A lot of the ads would have a question mark, which you would not normally do. You wouldn't say Tic Tac question mark, but the whole thing is basically it's an offer to somebody else, and it's just a way to be smooth. Way to it's a it's it's small talk for the mouth.
Hey, I want to tell you about something pretty cool. We have a database of all of the business ideas that have been discussed on this podcast. So hundreds of episodes, the team at HubSpot went through. They pulled out all the simple, relatable, interesting, profitable, uh, ideas that we have brainstormed, and they're all available for download for free. Just click the link in the description below. Thank you to our friends at HubSpot for sponsoring this podcast and putting together this free resource for you guys. Back to the show. Yeah, so, so Tic Tac was a, you know, a brilliant name also, and it starts getting used in movies because the name is just like fun to say. And, um, and then he's like, you know, we've talked about Touchland Soap, this, this this woman who sold this company for, I think, $800 million or something recently. And what she did was she took Purell, like, hand sanitizer, this utilitarian, ugly product, and she made it look like women's perfume. And it came in different scents, and it was all hand sanitizer, but, you know, something small you'd want to carry in your, in your purse that looked cool, smelled great, and didn't have, like, you know, change of— just competed in a different dimension than hand sanitizer. Not trying to kill more germs per second, But say your hands aren't going to smell like ethanol at the end of this, right? So, so then, then you have the, the Ferrochet, like, packaging where it's like this, this, you know, these golden nuggets, these, like, special things that are, that are put into this. And so just brilliant all around in terms of, like, how they, how they did, uh, the marketing genius behind some of these things. And so the brand takes off. It's doing really, really well. He's an innovator. And now they're super secretive. I think for, like, Up until four or five years ago, they had never done an interview. They had never let anyone into the factory. It was like on some real Willy Wonka shit. They you know it was like the one journalist who got in was like this is actually less like Willy Wonka. It's more like Area 51. There was armed guards. They because they build their own machinery to produce the the chocolate, so they didn't want anyone to know the engineering behind their machinery, the recipes behind Nutella. They didn't want to know anything, and they weren't really even using it for marketing purposes. Like the The grandfather, all the photos of him, you'll see he's wearing dark sunglasses. He just never wanted to be seen, never wanted to be known. And so only very recently did they start doing anything. And so then you have the grandson, the third gen. And so gen one was kind of like the pioneer trying to make it happen, was kind of like pioneers or whatever. Settlers get— pioneers get slaughtered, then the settlers do whatever, then the townspeople build the empire. It was kind of that same thing. So, you know, he didn't really make it, but the son had the breakthrough innovations. And then that, that guy's son took on a totally different strategy. He went Warren Buffett. He was basically like, all right, inventing these products really hard, really expensive, really low, low hit rate. What if we went and found value brands that we could turn around? And so he went and bought Butterfingers and Baby Ruth and Crunch and like all these brands, acquired them. tried to revitalize the brand and then bring them back. And so he's built this portfolio of other brands now, and he took like an M&A approach. And I just thought, what's the Italian word for private equity? 'Cause that's what these guys did. This is some beautiful private equity that I've been seeing in play here for the last—
That is so cool.
80 years.
I bought a Butterfinger last night. I freaking love Butterfinger. I feel old, but I like— I did. I bought—
Just me, myself, and Sam having a Butterfinger or what?
I went to the CVS and I got the, uh, the movie style. You know how they like put like, like movie style candy, like in the box with like mini Butterfingers? I totally had a whole box to myself last night. So I'm on board with this guy.
I don't like Butterfinger. Love Crunch. Uh, Baby Ruth, by the way, not named after Babe Ruth.
It's not?
No. So it's named after Ruth Cleveland, the daughter of President Grover Cleveland.
Oh, is Babe Ruth the baseball player named after her then?
I don't think so.
You can't have 2 Babe Ruths. I mean, that's like, there's not like—
I don't know how they got away with that.
This is, this is pretty awesome. Why are you fascinated by this, this topic? Because it's clearly a trend.
Well, I have all these like themes. So one is like huge businesses hidden in plain sight is always something that's interesting to me. So like, you know, I've been eating this, but I never took the time to think, Who made this? What's the story of this? Why does this packaging look so different than any other product that in the entire store? And why don't more people do this? Why isn't like, like, how can you apply this marketing principle to another category? Like, I just can't believe people aren't doing that. So that immediately my brain starts firing and I start fantasizing about these products I'm going to create before I remember I'm already rich and I don't want to work. And that's way too much work to do any of that. But if somebody ever did it, you know, like, you know, kudos to them.
Rory Sutherland, who we had on, he talked about, uh, what's the name of the soda that has the piece of foil on top? You know, the Italian— also Italian, actually.
Oh, Pellegrino? Uh, no.
You're close. Pella-something. It starts with a P and it's got—
It's like that lemonade-y type thing, right?
It's like a lemon-flavored Italian soda. Is it San Pellegrino? Okay. I thought San Pellegrino was also water, but this is like San Pellegrino, like, soda.
Yeah.
And he was explaining how the tin over it, He's like, that's a really small thing, but they did it to be like, this can is extra clean and special. It's never been—
Fresh.
Yeah. Popping the seal. He was explaining the importance of something fairly insignificant in the grand scheme, and how it— and he was explaining the psychology behind it. And that really got me thinking. And you're describing the exact same thing with the candy. It's wrapped in like a gold tin. And I was thinking about that a lot. And I guess it's another Italian company pulling it off.
Yeah. So I, I love the marketing mind. That's always a fascinating thing. I love businesses hidden in plain sight. I'm always a sucker for, you know, the richest man in Italy? And I'm like, sure don't, you know, tell me. Like, there's gonna be an interesting story. And then I am also interested in these kind of family dynasty businesses, um, because, uh, I, I think it's the businesses that really like withstand the test of time. They have to do like several miracles. And one of the great miracles is that It has to get passed down to somebody who doesn't screw it up. And what I thought was kind of cool, there was a story about one of the, one of the generations. I don't know if it's the current one. Um, by the way, I'm opening one of these up. I don't know if it's the current one or it's the, the middle son, but he said something like he didn't even realize they were rich until he was like 15 years old. He's like, I had no idea. Uh, they kept that from me. And it's like, the 4 housekeepers didn't tip you off? Uh, so I don't know exactly how that was possible, but yeah, that apparently there was something in the upbringing where I think they were, they just spent so much time actually working in the like factory and on the product that it wasn't clear. Like it was more about the work and the craft than it was about the prizes.
That's awesome. I would love to, I listened to a, the reason I know very little about it, but I know some about it is because Founders, the Founders podcast, he did an episode on the family and it's a pretty old one. So I listened to it a while ago, but it would be curious. I would be curious to see like— Hey,
would you ever like to listen to Founders without the research? MFM, we're here for you.
While you're stuffing your face with food, which is like the— that sounds great on the mic. Let me hear you chew.
This 9:00 AM chocolate is hitting the spot.
Dude, I had Sweet Tarts for breakfast, so I'm just eating—
I would— I want to know, like, the family dynamics. I'm so curious. I think that, like, the stories of Succession, the movie or the TV show, and, like, the drama, I don't think that is actually the common thing. I think that like there is a way where you can be like harmonious and loving and also like good at this whole business thing. And I, it's just less interesting to write or read about that or make a movie or a TV show.
Harmony. Yeah.
Yeah. But it would be really exciting to like read a book on how they do it effectively. Uh, another family that done that, that did it effectively is the Rothschild family. Do you know about those guys?
I mean, I just know the name. I don't know what they did in the family.
Like, there's a crazy story where the, uh, like, the, the original Klan— so they're known now as, like, Illuminati-esque, where it's, like, mysterious. But the original story is, uh, I believe they were, uh, in Germany in the 1800s, and the dad was, uh, into business and banking, and he had 5 sons, and he seemed very loving and respectful with them, and he purposely asked them to move when they became adults to different countries. and do the banking trade that he was doing and teaching them. And that is how they became this, like, amazingly successful European family. But the kids were like, no, he was— he was a really loving guy. He, like, he taught us good values and we like doing this with him. And so, like, I've been reading a little bit about that family as well.
Yeah, it's— I mean, I don't know if I'm ever going to do that, but I did have a random idea recently that it's kind of like fascinated me. So I was listening to some interview with the chef from Carbone, and he said something like— the interview actually was a little bit boring, but he said one thing that I thought was pretty interesting. He goes, oh, I was always obsessed with food. I was 12 years old and I was, I was an absolute foodie. I was always watching cooking shows. I knew about every restaurant. I knew I wanted to be a chef. And, you know, one of the greatest gifts that nobody really talks about, right? Like, you want your kid to be, you know, really good at school or really good at sports, really whatever. I mean, really one of the best things you can do is figure out what you actually love to do in life. The earlier you figure that out, that's actually the big advantage.
And so I think that was Warren Buffett's advantage.
It's Warren Buffett's. It, it's everyone. If you read these guys, they, you know, Jim, uh, MrBeast is like, yeah, at 12, I just, 11 years old, I decided I was gonna die a YouTuber. Like I just wanted to be a YouTuber. That's all I wanted to do. And so from 11, he is like, yeah, so I'm whatever he is now, 28. He's like, you know, I've been doing this for 20 years. That's how you know it. It's like, I've been doing this 17 years now. And so, He's literally just spent more time on this than anyone else. Warren Buffett bought first stock at 7 and basically was thinking about businesses, money, and stocks since he was very young and, and had time during that golden window. And, and when I interviewed Mohnish Pabrai, he was— I was asking him about these books on the wall. He had a, a whole section on like science and neuro— neuroscience and psychology. And I go, what's something you really took away from reading a bunch of these? And he goes, we have a certain hardwiring That's kind of baked by the time you're 6 or 7, like your, your core nature, your DNA, you kind of know who that person is. But he goes, and there's a golden window. And I think the golden window was something like, you know, 6 to 16 years old. And during that 10-year window, if you found something that's, that you can obsess over and you can, you get free rein to actually obsess over it during that window. You will hyper-specialize when the brain is in this certain period and you'll become world-class. Like, you're, you're, the rest of your life happens. And if you really don't, and so he, he talks about this with investing. He's like, I don't invest in companies where the CEO doesn't have an evidence of the lemonade stand when they were 10 or 11. Because if you really, if you're an entrepreneur, you were an entrepreneur at an early stage. Now, I don't 100% believe this, but I did think it's interesting. And you do see this pattern a lot.
Did he have that? Did Mohnish have that?
Uh, yeah. So he, I asked him that and he was like, he's like, yes. And he goes, it wasn't for entrepreneurship. It was basically for like, his dad had a jewelry business or a gold business or something like that. And he said like, basically my MBA was every day my dad would come home and the business was failing and me and my brother had to figure out something we could try to get this business to not fail, to have enough cash to be like in business next month. And so in doing that, he's like, I basically got my MBA when I was 8 years old. Every day helping my dad with his jewelry business, working in the store, coming home, hearing the problems, hearing the inventory struggles, the cash flow management problem. If we have all these sales, why don't we have any money? Oh, because there's a difference between revenue and profit, between profit and cash flow. And, you know, he's like learning these things without knowing the names of them. Like this sort of intuitive gut learning that's happening during that phase.
And for the record, you don't need that to be pretty successful. I
do think that— but to be world class.
Yes. I think that that's the advantage that the best of the best of the best have.
And you see like, oh, in the World Cup right now, it is like Um, Lamine Yamal. And it's like, how come the US doesn't produce players like this? And it's like, well, because at age 7, he went and moved in to the soccer academy, and he was there from 7 to 17. And guess what? He's amazing now at 18. You know, like, which, which maybe your kid would have been too had they left the house and moved in, um, you know, to the soccer academy at age 6 or 7. And that's like really all they trained and focused on for a long period of time. Are you willing to do that? Uh, the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell talks a little bit about this, like you know, at a young age, Bill Gates and Paul Allen, the founders of Microsoft, their school was the first, one of the only schools in the country to have a computer. So he got to mess around with the computer for free. He had free access to it after school for like a very long period of time. You know, Furkan, my old co-founder, he would tell me like, yeah, his dad worked at a computer company. So when he was 5 years old, like his earliest memory wasn't like playing catch with my dad. It was like building a printer from scratch. It's like, yeah, no, no, no joke that now he can like build anything. Um, because during that golden window, he did that. Anyways, long way of saying, I've thought about how you could be somewhat intentional about this. Meaning, if my kid shows an interest in something, I think I'm going to lean in way harder than most people would during the golden window. And I've thought about taking like a sabbatical year where I'm just like going to pluck them out of school for, you know, in 5th or 6th grade and just be like, hey, we're going to travel the world and like, we're, I'm just going to develop you. I'm going to shape you now. And not like when I'm 65 and I retire and I have more time, because you're gonna be— the cookie's already crispy by then. You know what I mean? Like, I gotta do it when the dough is raw. And so I'm thinking about that. Um, does that sound crazy? Does that sound—
No. So it's so funny. Um, a friend for my birthday, a friend gifted me the Andre Agassi book that I, I haven't started it yet, but I was asking him what he learned. Uh, have you ever read that? Andre Agassi's, his biography? It's considered, no, I haven't. It's considered one of the best biographies. And I'm not a tennis— and my friend and I, neither of us are tennis guys, but he's like, it's, It's so good. And I said, what's the big takeaway? And he was like, the crazy thing is Andre didn't even seem like he loved tennis. And he, he frankly didn't seem like he had superstar energy. Like he kind of begrudgingly did it, but he was pretty good. And I was like, well, how did he become like one of the greats of all time? And he said his dad, his dad was maniacal. His dad, like his dad saw that Andre showed a little bit of interest and he just pushed him and, and just went all in on it. And I was joking and I was like, Okay, so maybe he, maybe he did or didn't have a good relationship with his father. I'm not sure. But I think that like these guys, like Serena Williams' dad, Andre Agassi's dad, like some of these harsh fathers, I'm like, they get a lot of shit, but like, it seems pretty worth it. Like to have this like tiger dad, this tiger mom energy.
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I've seen a little bit of it. Yeah, I love Badal. I love Badal.
His dad was the same way. His father was so hardcore about it, and he pushed him and pushed him and pushed him and was his coach. And then there's this other guy named Sebastian Coe, who's a famous runner. So, you know, not that many people are going to know who he is, but he's— he had the world record for the mile. And his dad, Peter, was the same way where they would run and his father would be in the car with a stopwatch timing every interval.
Behind every great man is a great woman. It's like, And an abusive father. Yeah.
And I do think that there's a way that you can do this where you can, like, balance, like, being a good, like, a nurturer and also a pusher.
One thing I'm not saying, I'm gonna, like, hypertrain them for greatness on, like, you know, hey, get up, we're running sprints every morning, like, you know, whatever, up the hills. What I meant was really, I'm gonna give them exposure because I think most people, the problem isn't that you found what you love And then you didn't keep doing it. Because when you really love something, it has a great amount of pull. You just do it anyways. I think what most people don't do is they don't really get to walk around Costco and sample the things. And I think that's actually the more interesting thing is like, how do you get somebody exposure? Because I would say the vast majority of people never even find out if they really love something. Because by the time you— like, school is such a regimented track, right? You're spending 8 hours a day doing the same exact things as every other kid. Did you happen to love photosynthesis? Did you happen to love trigonometry? Like, probably not. And so by the, and then, and then it's all just funneling you to get into a college. And when you get into a college and it's about getting a job, by the time you have a job, now you're working and you're trying to like pay for life. And by the time you're 30, you're like, well, I didn't really get that one, that, that opportunity to go figure out that actually it was podcasting that I really had an affinity to. I actually really loved that. Or it was, you know, whatever it is, like baking. It was this, it was that. It doesn't really, it's hard to even know. And I think most people never even know. And so the thing I wanna make sure I do for my kids is, Get you to at least feel and see what different, what the world is, what are, what's even on the menu of options so that you have some exposure in life. Because I don't think the world by default does a good job of giving you exposure.
You and I have a great friend, Ramon. So Ramon Van Van Meer, and he, Ramon had a difficult situation where he became a single dad when his son was only two years old, and. I met Victor when he was, I think, 3. Now he's actually a sophomore or junior in college. And he, Ramon was crazy. Partly he did this outta necessity, partly because he's a really amazing dad. And he would bring Victor starting at the age of maybe 7 to these really big business meetings. I remember he sold one company when Victor was something like 10 years old. He sold it for close to $10 million. And I remember he would go to LA from San Francisco and he would take Victor out of school and bring him. And Victor would just sit like next to him and Victor wouldn't talk, but he would, um, uh, pay attention to the meeting. And afterwards Ramon would be like, Victor, what's your opinion? What should we do? Um, and then another time, uh, Victor has actually been to China, uh, uh, I think a couple of times, uh, because Ramon has a company now, uh, Afinia, where they have, uh, manufacturers in China. And he'll bring him to China, and he'll just sit quietly and be like, afterwards, Victor or Ramon will be like, hey, okay, so what do you think? You think this guy's legit? Should we go with him? Should we do this? And I remember seeing that, and before I had kids, I thought it was awesome. And then after I had kids, I thought it was like a blessing, a treasure. Like, it changed from like, this is cool, to admiration. Right. To like, you have gone from being a good dad to a deity to me. Like, you are like, I can't believe how special and how lucky Victor is to have you. And I remember seeing that and I'm like, that is the way to have a kid.
I agree 100%. Seen the same thing. Uh, he— Rowan is an amazing dad. And, uh, it's not just— I think because I've watched that and in the moment you're just kind of like, well, they're, you know, if a kid is there, didn't say anything, or maybe even after the fact, what'd you think? It was good. It was cool. They're not going to give you some satisfying answer as a dad. Like, you know, Dad, I really learned the like the virtue of hard work today. Actually, what I saw was they're never going to tell you the thing, but like, you just have to trust the process and be like, it's all soaking somewhere, somewhere in the mind. This experience was imprinting somewhere in the brain in a positive direction. And that if they, you know, if I didn't give them this experience, I would have in a way robbed them of some of that exposure. So yeah, I'm a big believer in that. My kids are really little right now, but I, I do similar things.
That's awesome. Okay, let me tell you another story about someone. You and I, we get invited to some stuff that occasionally is interesting. Most of the time we both say no, but I decided to go to one of these dinners and it was in a beautiful apartment and clearly some guys there were like total ballers. But I sit next to this one guy and he's very unassuming and I start talking to him and he's very nice. He's kind of like Dharmesh Shah, the, the one of the founders of HubSpot, like very low key. And he's like, how are you using AI? And I'm like, well, I made a Chrome plugin that helps you select, like, which jeans fit you if you go to a store, if you like jeans.
John, look at my ass right now.
Yeah.
Tell me these jeans don't fit like they were fitted by AGI. 3 cities don't have water right now because these pants fit so well.
And, uh, I was like, how about you? What are you doing? And he, like, starts explaining some stuff, and it's kind of blowing my mind. And I'm like, wait, who are you? And he says his name, but he doesn't really say what he does. And the guy runs maybe one of the most, if not like the top 3, like financial services business in the world. And he's extremely multi-billionaire and he's the founder of—
Extremely multi-billionaire.
Extremely. Like, he's so extreme. And I thought I, after he, I start talking to him like, I recognize you. You have articles written about you. It's where it's like this mysterious billionaire.
Say his name and then we'll bleep it.
Okay. So he's the founder of—
Yes. Okay.
So one of the most, like, sophisticated financial services business, arguably potentially one of the most profitable in its field, making like tens of billions in profit.
That's almost an intimidating person to meet. It's almost like, have you ever, you know, I used to have this old Dell laptop that when it really— when you opened up a few too many windows, the fan would kick on and it would start heating up. I feel like that dude's brain must just be like that. Was there just heat exhaust coming off of
him? I'm, I'm closer to a homeless guy in terms of like accomplishments and brainpower than I am to this guy. And it was so awesome that this guy walked into this room. He was one of the most quiet guys. He probably talked the least amount.
Before you describe his calves and stuff, what did he say about AI? You said he was blowing your mind a little bit. What did he say?
I have to be somewhat vague. He was saying he was just explaining like how they do it for like trading and like making financial decisions. But frankly, he was using— he clearly was trying to talk my level, but it was so hard without using like the jargon that he had to use. But like at one point I was like, so is your company cool? Why is it cool? He's like, well, I think we have a good culture. We pay really well and the office is nice. And I look up how much they pay and it's like the highest paying thing.
In the world. Yeah.
In the world.
I think they have the most profit per employee or something. You know, it's like crazy, crazy numbers like that. Did they say anything with AI that surprised you? Meaning like, oh, I just didn't, I didn't realize that was possible, or I would've never thought to do that. As, give me a little bit more if you can, if you can break off one more piece of bread.
Well, what, what he was, he, what he was explaining, he was like, you know, we actually had been doing this before, like it became popular. We were doing it in this particular way. And then all this new breakthrough technology came out, but it wasn't like a surprise to us cuz we'd been tinkering with this stuff. Right. And basically he was like, it helps us make decisions like within fractions and fractions and fractions of seconds. Like he was using these time measurements that I didn't, I didn't even know what that word meant. And he was like, he was like explaining like how they make decisions and how they use AI to make decisions. And he was like, yeah, like we've had data centers, we've had all of this stuff before. Now it's more accessible and it's easier. Right. 'Cause we, but he is like, we built all this stuff before. It was just like crazy that someone that is so epic and so world-class at what they do, they made me feel— he made me feel better than him in a weird way.
So he's a great actor too then?
Yeah.
Wow. Triple threat.
Well, that's why I didn't want to be insulting. I don't think he was acting. I think that he like, he made me feel good.
Well, he had true, true charisma then in that he was genuinely interested in other people. Not based off of like, you know, some weird power rankings. And when you're interested in people, that makes them feel great. And that's a gift. That's a, that's an amazing gift. I think it sounds so simple and very few people know how to do that.
And I've noticed that with a bunch of really successful people, the ones that I truly like, they are so curious. They are curious to the point where they will think about silly ideas very seriously and take them serious.
Yeah, I had a embarrassing, like, reduction the other day where I was like describing— we went to an event or we hosted an event and it was like, oh, there's all these different people. I like this person. I really like this guy. That— oh, she was really cool. And then I realized, oh, what's the common factor? Is just like, I think I like people who like me. And I was so embarrassed by that being true. But it was really like the— I have a very hard time liking people who I don't feel like me. So the opposite is more true than the first part, meaning like I don't love everybody who likes me, but I can't really like anybody if I feel like they don't like me. And I was like, what kind of junior high bullshit mindset is this? And I didn't know what to do with it, but I definitely had that awareness at least. And I was like, I think I should not have that be the kind of the heaviest weight, you know, factor in this stuff. Do you ever do that? It sounds so stupid as I say it out loud.
No, I mean, I don't think that's so stupid. I think that Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People, he says the root of everything that you read from me is basically people want to feel important. And if you understand that, then like life's cream cheese, like life's good. And if you make people feel important, then, then that is how you win friends and influence people. And what's funny is this guy and I, we left the, the event together and we mistakenly took like a service elevator. And so we get lost in this building for like 25 minutes, like trying to get out because we took the wrong and we couldn't figure out the signs. And I'm like,
were you like, come on, genius, get us out of here?
I was like, how many billionaires does it take to find the exit?
And Superman, turn on the laser.
And, and then at the end I was like, I, I know that like no one can find photos of you on the internet. I know that you purposely stay off the grid, but you know, like, wanna come on My First Million? And he like, and he even dignified it with a, I'll consider it. There wasn't even like a, like, are you insane? No, I, I won't do this. And I just think that like to all the up-and-comers listening, like Quentin, be humble and be nice and make people feel important. That is like kind of a key to life.
Well, we should tweak that, right? Because the make people feel important sounds manipulative. What's the real— what's the way to do that that's actually real? I would say be curious. If you're genuinely curious or interested in people, curiosity is like one of these, um, you know, like those like grandma's remedies where it's like, oh, I have pneumonia. And it's like, put some whiskey in the pancakes and that'll do it. It's like, what? That doesn't make any sense. And then it like works. Curiosity is kind of like that, where almost all these unrelated problems can be solved with curiosity. I'll give you an example. One is what we're talking about here, which is when you're actually curious about somebody, you will appear interested in them because you are interested in them. And then they feel interesting and they feel like you took it because you took an interest in them. They feel an affinity towards you. Great. That's one. This works with yourself, too. So a lot of times I'll talk to my trainer, my coach, And let's say I'm feeling bad about something. What most people try to do is they say, don't feel bad, feel good, it's okay. And like, don't feel bad is pretty poor advice when you're feeling bad about something. And instead he just says like, don't feel bad, just get curious. And he's like, just lean into it. Like, get curious about it. What is that? Why do you feel that way? You know, hmm, has that ever happened before? And as soon as you start getting curious, it's almost like the cloud moves away, the sun starts to peer through. And because your brain literally shifts state into a into a more childlike, curious state of mind. And it takes the edge off. It takes the guilt or the shame or the self-loathing off of whatever it is you're doing. It's so weird. You wouldn't expect curiosity to be a cure for some of these moments, of these moods, but it is. It tends to be. And so just getting curious about something, I would say, is kind of like a catch-all cure for things.
And what's funny is I was a pretty awkward teenager. I would say I'm still a pretty awkward guy. And I went and read books on good questions to ask people to to like have a conversation. And I even follow these guys on Instagram, how to do it. But the best people I found was that show On the Spectrum, the dating show with autistic kids. And I stole so many questions that I ask people. So if I'm like at like a dinner party or I'm talking to people, I will always say, what are your hobbies? And like, it sounds like such a childish thing. You get the best answers. And then I also say, what do your parents think of what you've done? Right. Or I ask a lot about their parents and like they start opening up. But like, I had to like learn how to like have small talk.
Yeah, everybody needs to, I think. Okay, I like that. That's a cool— that's a cool story. Today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at Mercury. They make the world's best banking product. I think you know this already. I use Mercury for all of my businesses. I think I have like maybe 7 or 8 businesses. We use Mercury as our business banking across all of them. And now they actually just launched a personal banking account. So I have my personal account there. I moved off of Wells Fargo and Chase. I'm just all in on Mercury. Why? I like products that are easy to use. I like products that get me and the problems that I have. So like very easy to make a joint account with my wife, very easy to spin up virtual cards. One click and I get savings yield. It just has all the stuff that I need in one place. So if you're looking for the best banking product on the market, it's definitely Mercury. I will fistfight anybody who disagrees with me on that. Go to mercury.com/personal and learn more. Mercury is a fintech, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services are provided through Choice Financial Group and Column and A, members FDIC.
All right. I could talk to you. Let me talk to you about something. It's going to sound sad and it is sad, but I think it's like really interesting. And I had permission to talk about this, but I think it's cool. So you and I had a producer named Ben Wilson. Ben Wilson was our producer for My First Million for a long time, and he now has a podcast called How to Take Over the World. He's got 4 kids under the age of 5 years old. It's crazy. And 6 weeks ago, he found out that he has stage 4 lung cancer, where the odds are not in his favor, but he's got like the best doctors in the world. So like some crazy things might happen. And he's very optimistic. But I went and met with him yesterday. He's in New York to see a doctor. And I wanted to talk about my experience getting to like, like talk to him, because this is like a very, like, interesting predicament that he's in. Think about this. 6 weeks ago, he found this out. So in the 6 weeks, he moved his house, he sold his home and got a new home closer to the doctor that he's going. He did, like, a $400,000 fundraiser, which was amazing. He, like, got his will and all of his estate stuff together, and he's gone to, like, all these, like, doctor's appointments, like, so many of them. And I remember, like, talking to him yesterday, and I was like, dude, you've gone through so much. Like, this is so heavy. Yeah. And he was telling me a little bit about it. And my initial reaction when I heard all of this, I felt like extreme sadness, partially because Ben's a Mormon. So Ben has lung cancer and it's in his spine and his brain, but started as lung cancer. And he has never smoked. He has never drank. He has really never done anything bad in his life. And I felt like we have an agreement with the universe where we put good in and we should get good out. And I was like, this agreement has been broken. And I felt, like, pretty, like, pissed about it. And I— yeah, I felt very angry. But then, like, I started, like, seeing how he was reacting to all this stuff. And, like, I would put myself in that shoes. I'm like, all right, 6 weeks ago in June, I find out that I have this illness. Like, how do I react? And I was like, I would be— I would go insane. I would be so sad. I'd be so depressed. It was just, like, crazy how calm he was. And what's interesting is that Ben has a podcast called How to Take Over the World, which is about like how great leaders become great. And I was thinking about that, and he had this journal with him, and it was on the title of this journal was 0 to 365. And I was like, what's this? He was like, I have a journal where I'm gonna document every single day, and my goal is to fill this whole thing out. It may not happen, but I'm gonna work my hardest to fill this out and make it 365 days. And I pray that there's a sequel. to this journal so my kids can, like, read this. Mm-hmm. But if I can't do it and I meet my maker sooner than I intend to, or I want to, I'm gonna be really excited about it. And I remember, like, thinking, like, I listen to his podcast all the time on, like, how to be great. And I listen to all these podcasts on how to be great. We just did one on, like, how to be great. And I was thinking, I was like, what's crazy is how much dignity and integrity and bravery this guy is facing this. And I was like, me or you, hopefully, and everyone listening, the odds are that none of us will face like a tragedy like this. But I was thinking, I was like, in my day-to-day life, like, I react to things sometimes in such a horrible way, like so negatively and so like not being positive, or I'm letting little things bother me or little things distract me from what's important. But I was like, I really should change that because I hope I never face anything like he's facing. But what I've noticed knowing Ben for a few years is he's always been like a pretty stoic, brave person. And I'm like, these little things that I face every single day, they can prepare me for something horrible. And I hope that horrible thing never happens. And if it doesn't, at least I will have like responded to like my day-to-day life in a way that a great man would. Because what's interesting is like seeing him like journal about this, and he was like showing me a little of the journal. In my head, I was like, I'm seeing like a great man be great in real time and respond to like the worst thing on earth in the most dignified, wise, and like the best way I've ever seen. And it inspired me so much. And I was just like, what good can I take from this? How can I be great even if I don't face like a tragedy or like if I just live a boring life? Like, how can I be great on a day-to-day basis?
Wow. Yeah, that's a great— I mean, I'm— I— that's a great way of putting it. A couple of things that came up. The first is, you know, if you haven't listened already, go listen to his podcast where he announced it. I mean, I listened to that. I probably listened to that 2 or 3 times. I listened the first time myself. I listened a second time when my mom was in the car because I wanted her to hear, because I just thought his entire attitude towards the situation, towards what is, you know, a very devastating sort of piece of news is you have every right to be sad. You have every right to be bad. You have every right to feel any of the feelings you want to feel. And he kind of had such a different perspective. It made me think a couple of things. The first was, man, I haven't been a religious person in my life. And I think it's because the way my logical brain is sort of like, Well, I don't know. There's no evidence. You know, like, it's like literally like the definition of like faith is kind of like believing without evidence. And I've always respected religion, but I've never felt it. But when I saw his response and the way he was like, you know, I'm excited to meet my maker. And if, you know, if God's calling me, then that's, you know, the way it was serving him. I was like, wow, this is the This is the— these are the rewards for living with, like, such strong faith, is that even when the worst news hits, even when anybody else would feel, you know, sorry for themselves, you know, he took it very, very differently. And it was, like, such a foundational thing for him.
He said excited. He told me, and I think he said in the podcast, he goes, I can be excited about this. And I thought that was, like, so
good. Yeah, that's unbelievable. Um, so I thought that was the first thing, was like really highlighted like the virtue and the value of like being a person of faith and how like, you know, I've in my own life not— I've had the luxury of not having to have that because life goes pretty well without it for me, right? Like without having to, to have faith in, in certain things. Um, so I thought that was— that really stood out. The second was, I think you nailed it, the difference. You know, his podcast is about Napoleon and Caesar and these complicated men who achieve, who conquered. I think, you know, it's how to take over the world. It's about conquerors. It's about the world shapers. And there's a big difference between achieving greatness and being great. What Ben is doing right now is greatness, but it's being great, not achieving something. And I think there's a huge difference. And I think for myself and most people, we don't really split those out. And It's very easy to set goals. And I remember being young and being like, I want to be Forbes 30 Under 30. This was before it became like the FBI watch list. But I remember thinking like, that would be a great achievement. I want to have $1 million in my bank account. I want to have this, I want to have that when I was 19, 20 years old. And it was all about achieving. And the 2 people we've talked about, Ramon and Ben, they are great examples of being great, living day to day in a great way. He's really showing his greatness, you know, in the hardest time, which is when it matters, when it counts, when it's real. And then, yeah, like, you know, I just hope that there's something, you know, in maybe the age of AI, maybe there's some way that, you know, with the best doctors, with the tech, with the belief, with everything that, you know, he does all right. Yeah.
And he's like the Bryan Johnsons and Andrew Hubermanns of the world. they like opened up the Rolodex and they put him in touch with all these people. And he's doing all this, like the traditional stuff and some experimental stuff. And yesterday he was like, I feel really good. I feel better than I have in a long time. Yeah. So it's looking good. But I, the reason why I wanted to bring this up on My First Million, because I don't think we say this explicitly enough, but we have said it before, which is we talk about like being rich here and we try to say a rich life, and we try hard to like let people know that this isn't just about money. It's just that it's, it's about defining what life is worth living and how it, how it can be rich for you. And I just wanna reiterate that like the million in My First Million doesn't necessarily mean dollars, but it means like the first like unit of richness that you can have in your life. And so, That's sort of my public service announcement, but also like some of the things that I've learned in talking with him.
Well, I'm glad you shared that. Ben, we're rooting for you, man. Yeah, he's part of the, he's part of the MFM family. He was our producer for what, like a year or two, something like that? Yeah. He had his podcast and we met. We met through, you've put me onto his podcast. You were like, dude, I've been listening to this thing. It's amazing. Then I remember going to the airport And I was listening to his Edison episode, and it's a 3-parter. And I drove to the airport, listened to part 1, drove back, listened to part 2, and then I just went for an extra drive to listen to part 3. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. And I called him and I was like, dude, who are you? What's your story? And then we brought him in. He became our producer, which helped him pay the bills while he was getting his podcast kind of like more and more off the ground. Then it was time for him to kind of like focus on his pod. We wished him well and You know, still wishing him well. So Ben, get get well, man. We we're all rooting for you.
Yes, it was a very. I hope listener. I hope you don't take this as sad, and I'm sure Ben's gonna hear this. But it was this. I I I want to leave on a on a on an inspirational note, not not sadness. So I hope you guys dug it, and we'll end there. That's it. That's the pot.
I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off. On the road, let's travel, never looking back.
All right, let's take a quick break. I wanna tell you about Marketing School. It is a podcast that is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network, and it is run by Neil Patel and Eric Siu. And these guys are both marketers who are running businesses. And so if you want real-world tactics from practitioners who are actually out there in the field doing it, this is the podcast for you. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts.