He made $100m betting on the NBA… here’s how

This was the biggest, greatest edge in the history of gambling edges, I can promise you. But I've never uttered this in public to anyone ever before.

You want to nuke it?

Yeah.

Let's nuke it.

I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off. All right, so let's travel.

So we got to tell your story because your story is— you basically did what me and probably 50% of other young guys wanted to do in their life. It's like Oh, what if I could take a few thousand dollars, find an edge, beat the house in Vegas, and turn a few thousand dollars into millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars, and ultimately, I believe, over hundreds of millions of dollars, not by counting cards in blackjack, first by, uh, you know, sports betting. And then you get recruited by Mark Cuban to go work for an NBA team at one point. You now own your own soccer club. So you've had this like really cool life and career.

You're like a comic book character.

Yeah. You're like your man cave came to life, you know, like it worked. Um, so That's dope. But, you know, of course no story is perfect. You know, there's ups and downs and it's not all, not like you planned it out this way, but what we like most on this podcast, this podcast is mostly a business podcast. So somebody comes on and they tell us about their company or their investments or whatever. And, um, but we, what we like most is people who play their own game. What I like about you is you play your own game. Um, you're pretty independent thinker. And so I want to kind of walk through the story. So what I'll call chapter 1 is stumbling into gambling and figuring out how to have that edge. Can you tell a little bit about that story? Because I think I know a little bit of it, but I know Sam, you don't know any of that story, right? How he first got and made a name for himself doing this.

No. Yeah, I grew up around gambling. My dad was, I use the term unsuccessful gambler. Some people might refer to it as degenerate. He was someone who gambled a lot. Unsuccessfully and, um, you know, had a lot of— it caused a lot of problems in our family. Uh, not to sugarcoat it, it was bad. But I grew up around the horse racetrack, and I grew up around watching football, NFL football on Sunday, basically trying to like help my dad make picks.

What city?

I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. So I was at the Assiniboia Downs racetrack, um, from— I guess it was every Saturday, Sunday, Wednesday for most of my teenage years, I would say 12 to 16, 17, 18. And so yeah, I just kind of was around. That's how I kind of, and I always thought it was rather interesting. I also saw like, first thing I didn't realize when I was younger was just how it was near impossible to beat the horses just because of the takeout. The vig is so high. It's like 30, 36%. They got to pay for everything, the stables, the horse pools, all of it. But I just thought, well, these people don't know what they're doing. You know, like they have no process. They don't know what's happening. They're very emotional. Like I grew up, I'm a Greek family. So you would hear these people, like they just were not in control of their emotions in any way. They would be upset when they win, they'd be upset when they lose. They would be arguing with each other. They'd having— I'm very low key. So to me, it was very different for me. So that's how I got started. And then at some point after I graduated from high school, I went to Vegas with my dad.

He was there.

And I went there for like a month or so.

He was there gambling?

Yeah, he was there. My dad was, if it was daylight hours and he had money in his pocket, he was gambling.

What was his occupation?

He was a first-generation. He moved to Canada when he was, he's got a great, you should have him on the show. He's got a great story. He moved to Canada when he was like 20 years old. Didn't speak a lick of English, became a dishwasher at Kentucky Fried Chicken, and just worked his ass off. And so he moved his way up from dishwasher to restaurant to finally getting involved in real estate somehow by some way, owning a commercial development. He was a— he had strip malls all over Winnipeg.

So he's an entrepreneur.

Big time entrepreneur.

Yes. Wow.

And when you go to Vegas, you're not 21, right? You just graduated from high school. So what do you do with your dad? You're in a casino. You can't really do much.

I parked myself in the sportsbook. And hope that nobody tells them.

Oh, because they don't ID you in the sportsbook. Yeah, you just sit there.

They're supposed to, but they don't. Like, you're just in the sportsbook. So you're just sitting there, you know, you're— and I just watched basketball. It was like the first time I really ever watched NBA basketball to that extent. I was previously— I was watching a lot of hockey and Canadian football. And yeah, my dad would give me a little bit of money, not a lot, and I would watch basketball and I would sit there from 4 PM Pacific to 10 PM, 11 PM Pacific and just watch the games on these giant TVs. And then I started to really enjoy the routine of watching the West Coast games, so I started to like kind of pay attention more to the West Coast teams. I was like, Chris Webber's rookie year when he played for Golden State, um, and they had Run TMC, I think it was, before that. Um, and so yeah, that's what I did.

Were you, were you losing money at first, or what was going on? How did you start making money?

I didn't, I didn't really win. I wasn't losing a lot though, like I, I wasn't I had an okay opinion by the end, but yeah, I was losing, of course. Like, I was probably flipping coins and paying big, so I was like probably 50-50 roughly, but needed, you know, but was paying— I needed to win 11 to 10, 11 out of every 10. So it wasn't bad. It wasn't like I was getting my ass handed to me or anything. Um, but then I realized I really like this and I want to get good at it. And then I just thought about what do I— what does that entail? What do I have to do to get good at it? And so I just went to work and just started taping games, to start reading a lot of newspaper articles on the internet.

When you're, when you're saying you're learning to get good at it, um, how much of it is a human side where you're like learning human emotions of like the players and leadership and things like that, like the story versus, uh, statistics?

Yeah, back then there was not a lot of good statistics. There was just the— there's just something called the box score, which is just not very— it's not very illustrative of the game. So it was almost that and a little bit of database work in terms of just getting aggregates from teams in certain situations. I also tried to really also understand the market more, I think. In other words, the opening lines with— oh, what I got to be really good when I was in Vegas around that time was seeing the sharps that would line up at the Stardust Casino in the morning. They had something called the lottery. So the lines would be posted in the morning, and then every sharp would be able to get make a full limit bet down in the morning and they'd have to do a lottery to see who could go first. And then they'd make a bet and then the book would decide to adjust. So I started just like looking to see like, okay, who are the actual sharps? Who are the guys who seem like they're moving money for other people? What are they betting?

So you're treating it like a job. You must have been getting there early then. What time is that?

Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's not a lot of work. It's not manual labor. I'm not like laying bricks or like riding off the back of a brontosaurus, like Fred Flintstone breaking rocks. But yeah, it would work.

And so did you go ask them to learn from them or you're just watching them from afar and figuring it out yourself?

I just wanted to see like, okay, this guy made a bet, the line didn't move. That's interesting. Then you see him back like the next day and the next day. And then you see the, by the way, it wouldn't just be one. You'd see like now at 4 o'clock post-time, the lines would move even more. So it's like, okay, this line moved a lot. There wasn't an injury. That guy bet it early. So it was just like little things. Just like, I think if I have one skill in life aside from being Um, uh, not, not really caring what other people who I don't know think about me, I think, and just being confident in that. I think it's like maybe like a little bit of pattern recognition. I think I'm decent at that. I think I, I can see patterns and I'm also able to identify like, oh, was that an actual pattern or was I just fooling myself with randomness there?

Did you have a role model? Like, was there, uh, you know, as, um, as like a, as like an 18 or 19 year old, are you thinking to yourself, uh, you know, there are other people who have gotten super rich doing this. I think I can do it. Or were you like, there's some people who make an okay living doing this. I think I can do it. Or you're like, I don't think about next year. It just, this is what I'm enjoying today.

When you're 19, you don't really think like that. I don't like in terms of like, oh, I want to make a, I've always been someone who's always like been very confident that I was going to be successful. I would recite things in my head when I was a kid, like I'm going to be a millionaire.

I'm going to be a millionaire.

I've just, I would just do that. And so at that age, I think I was just kind of, I wasn't sure how I was going to make it. I just knew I was going to make it. Like I kind of went through life with this like irrational confidence, I think.

Was there a definition of making it? Was it like $10 million by the time I'm 25?

Yeah, I think when I was tree planting, I would have like, I was listening to like Tony Robbins books and reading them, like listening to them at night and then reading them in the morning. And I think I had like 10 things that I wanted. And I, and yeah, I think it was $10 million before the age of of $30, I think. Back then, that was a lot of money. Now you can just spin up a meme coin and you're making it by noon.

But back then it was a lot. What was the first profitable pattern you figured out? The one that really, really kind of worked.

Canadian football was the first profitable. My first bit of money was Canadian football. Not like soccer, but actual like football, 3-down football. There's a lot of things going on then. There was they expanded into America at that time. And so you had some interest, for whatever reason, in Las Vegas to book Canadian Football League games or like offshore markets. And so, uh, and the Canadian teams had to abide by different rules than the American teams. So that was part of it. You had to have a certain amount of Canadians on your roster that were starting. American teams didn't, didn't have that. Uh, the Canadian stadiums were all compliant to Canadian Football League rules. American stadiums did not. So some of the end zones, like the Canadian rules are like the end zones are 20 yards deep, but in some stadiums in America, they didn't have that luxury. So they were like squared off at the back. And so those games are lower scoring. That was a big part of it. And I just got to be really good at knowing a lot about Canadian football and which teams were sharp or doing innovative things. So Canadian football.

So could you give us a sense of the, the kind of the journey? So you start with a rough, roughly what bankroll and then how long did it take you to get to your first million? And then at one point, I think you were betting like a million dollars a day or maybe even more than that.

Somebody said 10 million a day. I mean, I was betting a lot. I mean, I think like, so it's a long story. So I think the most it got to be, I was a skycap at the Winnipeg International Airport. That's when things really took off for me. And I don't think anyone's ever said that before in their life that things, you were a what?

What is a skycap?

The dudes are, I was like the first white skycap hired at the Winnipegger. It's like the dudes who sit curbside and carry people's luggage in and check their luggage in. In the US, they check the luggage in, but in Canada, that's not allowed because Transport Canada, so you would just carry people's luggage in. So I would like carry their luggage in.

Just a bag boy.

Uh, we don't like being called bag boys. Uh, but yeah, basically.

Yeah.

So you're just carrying people's luggage. Or like, or in Canada, a big thing in the winter. Was snowbirds who are fleeing Winnipeg to go move to Florida for the winter. And they're in wheelchairs and you're just like wheeling them through customs and immigration and making sure their bags—

You're making what, like what per hour roughly?

And then he got—

the owner got wind of that and he got upset. And so then he started working the Saturdays and Sundays and couldn't figure out why he wasn't making money that I was. But I was—

what were you doing? You're like complimenting these folks and just getting tipped?

Just being a tent guy.

I was being a tent guy. I was like a concierge of the Winnipeg International Airport. Um, but then anyways, I ended up taking over the company from him. I just undercut his contracts. And so there was actually at the Winnipeg International Airport, I was making so much money.

That's a, that's a, that's an easy leap, right? Bag boy to taking, like, it's like you just walk into his office and you're like, hey guy, move.

No, I was like, I was like, I went to him and I was like, yo, like I've already got North, it was Northwest Airlines, now Delta, I guess. But it was Northwest. I was like, hey, I've already got them to agree to the contract. Everyone wants to work for me. I can give you some money and you can just move on, or I can just undercut you. The money I'm going to give you, I'm going to say it's a win-win. And he was like, nope, don't want to do that, whatever. So I ended up doing that. I ended up undercutting him.

So how old are you?

I was 22, 23. Time. Um, there's actually a crazy story. So I was making so much money at the Winnipeg International Airport as a skycap and gambling— that mostly skycap— that, um, at the time, Eric, there was actually like a bunch of— there was, there was some cocaine that was found in Air Canada. I had like a pass to go everywhere as a skycap, and there was like a situation where some drugs were found, like big amount of drugs from like— and one of the U.S. Customs and Immigration employees who I became friends with said like, hey, you gotta— they think you're like, we know what you're doing here as a skycap and I know you, but you're like suspect number one. Like, just so you know, like, like you— they don't understand why you have a, like, a brand new Cadillac, whatever. Not brand new, but like you're driving a Cadillac like some gangster and you're walking around with wads of cash. Like, I had lots of cash from the stall tips. And so I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, like, it's— they were laughing, they thought it was funny. They realized, of course, it had nothing to do with it, but you can Google this. So it actually happened. There's like some kind of that happened in Winnipeg at the time where they found something.

So what was your— what was your income at the age of 22, 23, 24 doing all this?

Like $50,000 or $60,000 a summer easily. I was, you know, I was living with my, my mom and my brother, my older brother. We were like paying my parents rent for a while after, after my dad kind of had like a downslope on the, you know, during the 1987, whatever, the interest rates went up. Strip mall business wasn't so good anymore. Especially when you're borrowing money at floating rates to build these strip malls. So yeah, that was about what I was making at the time.

So you've been rich since you were 23 years old?

Oh, I don't think so because I've been spending, you know, like I wasn't exactly saving. Like money was going, I was like going out for dinner every night. I was like spending the money. I was taking trips to Vegas. I was doing stuff. But yeah, I had to pay for my school also. I had to pay for my university. So I was paying for my university, I was supporting my parents. So I wasn't rich, I just worked hard. Also, while I was working at SkyCap, I also worked at a video store at Rogers Video. I was working 40 hours a week at Rogers Video in the summer. SkyCap in the morning and Rogers Video, which is like a Canadian Blockbuster in the evening. So I had work ethic, I guess.

You're more of a hustler than I thought. 'Cause you, I guess, I don't know, the public perception is you're like kind of, just a sharp ear. It's all, it's all mental. You sit in your room, you have your models, and then you make bets and the money comes in. I didn't know at least some of these stories about you kind of hustling as the, the skycap and figuring out how to like run your own operation down there. So that's pretty cool. When did, like, I don't know, Sam, if you've heard these stories, but I guess a couple of your famous betting stories are, I guess you went all in at one point on the Lakers to win the championship and at like 6 to 1 odds.

Yeah, 6.5 to 1, roughly.

What, how much is all in and what, and what age in the timeline?

It was like $87,000 Canadian, give or take.

And, and that was all your money?

Yeah, but you could go buy, you know, I looked at it like, okay, it was all my money now. It's like October fishing, you know, fishing season just ended at Winnipeg International Airport. I've already paid for my tuition at the University of Manitoba to get my useless philosophy degree. I'm living in my brother's basement. Worst case, I lose this bet and I just go back to skycapping and just make half of that or two-thirds of that back again. So, but yeah, I made the bet. It wasn't a sharp bet by any stretch. Like, looking back, it wasn't sharp, but it felt sharp to me at the time. You don't have a— your risk model hasn't developed. Your amygdala or whatever hasn't fully developed to that age to really understand if you're making good decisions.

So did you win?

Yeah, we won. Yeah.

Sam, have you heard the Bill Burr quote about risk?

No.

Definitely relate to that. I mean, I don't know if any of you guys had the pleasure of spending a winter in Winnipeg, but it's not pleasant.

So one of the other stories then that's pretty sweet is he, I guess at one point, like in Vegas, you can bet on the full game, which is what most people do. Like me, I'm a casual. I go in, I just bet on the over-under, maybe on the the final score. And what he realized was that you could also bet on the first half only, which was not as common of a bet. But the way that Vegas was doing it is they would take the full score, which they were pretty accurate at predicting. And then for the halftime score, they would just cut it in half, divide by 2, roughly.

Make the first half a little bit higher scoring in general. I could tell you guys my— look, I haven't told this. I tell this story in a way that makes it so the edge still lives on for the people that are still betting. But I don't want to nuke it. You guys caught me out of it. Okay. This is, this will maybe go viral. I don't know. Probably fuck up a lot of people's money, but I think, I think that most people have figured it out by now, but I've never uttered this in public to anyone ever before. True story.

Um, okay.

But that seems like a clear pattern, right? Like you'd only need a season of games to understand that pattern.

Well, you don't know that teams are doing this. Not like they say, hey, the Mavericks are shooting in front of their, like they're the one team. Nobody's paying attention to this. Nobody knows that a team that, that, that, that back then it was, it was a perfect situation because it was 3 to 4 teams a year. They were all shit teams. It was in my heyday, it was the Utah Jazz, who was a shit team. The Washington Wizards with Eddie Jordan, shit team. Byron Scott, New Jersey Nets, shit team. And then you had a few teams like, um, the Minnesota Timberwolves did it some games, not other games, which is the dream scenario nowadays. That's probably screwing these gamblers because when that happens, you've So, um, so that was it. That was the edge. That's how I made all my— a lot of my money.

And you could—

I, I— if I had a bankroll of— this is not responsible, please don't follow this— but if I had a bankroll of like $250K because I was betting on credit, you settle at the end of the week, I'd have a situation where if I somehow lost all my bets, I'd be like $2 or $3 million in debt. But it didn't matter because I knew my edge was so big that I was betting, and I somehow partnered up with some big bookmaker slash alleged mafia guy in Montreal, which is another story, who was able to get me down for a lot of money. And he just basically, I gave him the bets. I told him what I wanted to bet. He would go bet them for me. He'd collect. He'd give me the money. I'd win. And that was that. So that's the edge. That's the whole edge in a nutshell.

This is insane. I have so many questions, but I'm a new fan.

I don't know why it's always, I've had friends who I've told this to are like, oh, can you please share that on my podcast with me? I'm like, ah, I feel bad for the people who are still grinding out a living doing this, but you know what? It's a new day. Terrorists are here. This is my terrorist of the gambling community.

I'm, um, I'm a, I'm a new fan of yours. You know, Sean was like, we got to talk to this guy. So I'm a new fan. So I went and read everything I could in the past week. Can you give some type of, can you, can you give me a noob some type of scale as to your winnings? Like, are we talking like hundreds of millions of dollars in winnings or whatever you're comfortable with?

So we're talking 9 figures in winnings.

I spent a lot. Like I didn't just always, that was like my net win. You know, I'm not talking about loco, I won, but I lost. I mean, like I lived a pretty good life. Like I took care of my parents. I did other things. But yeah, I profited a lot gambling on basketball for sure. Like a bad year for me on the NBA, I think it was like $6 or $7 million. Average year is probably $8. And in the early heydays, I made more money than I, yeah, than I, but I was also, I made some mistakes afterwards, but yeah.

But what do you, in your personal life, are you living a life of a 28-year-old rich guy of like, I mean, are you spending 7 figures a year in personal? Like, no, no, no, no, no. Not that crazy.

But I did a little other biz. I tried like other business things. I like, you know, I helped out some family. I bought like a profitable. In, in Montreal. I bought, you know, some stuff for my—

yeah, I mean, you're not, you're not— you kind of overplay. You're— it doesn't seem like you're being irresponsible.

No, I was just like, I just think life is short, and what's the point of money if you don't spend it? So, but I don't spend it— I spend it on experience. I spend on experiences. Like, I'm not a flashy guy. I don't drive a fancy car. I don't wear jewelry. I've never had a watch. I've never had any expensive—

you know, I'm pretty basic in my clothing, just like a lot of NBA players, like, and end up going broke, right? NFL players end up going broke in their later career. One of the crazy things about, like, I grew up idolizing Phil Ivey and a lot of poker guys, basically. And once I got into the world of business and investing, it's like, okay, this was kind of like what real wealth looks like. And I realized that a lot of the guys who were really great poker players, really great gamblers that you thought were really great gamblers, like, I don't think they were as successful.

Like businessmen.

As I thought. Like, you know, I don't, I don't think they made as much in their peak. And I think they lost a lot along the way, or they had huge downswings somewhere along the way. As far as you know, are you the most, like, did you do the best? Are you the most successful sports bettor that you know, or were there people better than you that made more than you?

Billy Walters is very, I mean, Billy Walters had the biggest, like, my edge was, I had to like scrap for my edge because Billy Walters had the first computer program when, like, they were using giant, like, these old Westinghouse machines to feed the information on those giant cards for computer programming. Till, and they had like a computer program when the Vegas oddsmakers would just sit there and like sit around a table. I think the line should be 7.5. What do you think, Jack? I think it should be around 8.5. And then like Billy Walters' computer guy is like, no, it's like 4.3 is the right price on this game. So they had like the best edge ever. He made a lot of money, super successful.

And Billy Walters, he, I think I saw a 60 Minutes special on him. Is he the, uh, he's a, he's a Southern guy. Yeah, I read about him. I saw the 60 Minutes and he was exactly like I thought he was going to be. He seemed like a fast-talking, wheeling and dealing.

I guess I shouldn't have said fast talking. I guess I mean charming. Charming.

Oh, yes. Yeah, I know. But he'd like, Well, I like to make a bet if I could. I mean, I like to make a formal game. But the thing about Billy is like people underestimated how sharp he was early on, but he's as sharp as they come.

Did you have any, uh, you know, like in the movies where it's like at some point the casino's like facial recognition, they're like, don't let this guy bet anymore. You know, take you in the back and bruise you up a little bit. Like, did you ever run into problems with winning too much?

How did that go?

Yeah, he just wasn't, he wasn't, it was too, he was too difficult to work with. I mean, he's got so much money and he's just like impulsive. Nah, I got, dude been hitting the head for like most of his life. Like, you know, he's how much, how much.

Yeah. He doesn't just piggyback off your bets, right? He's a huge bankroll. Couldn't he have just piggybacked off your bet? You're telling him to go back.

I think Floyd was already moving for someone else, whether it was Billy Walters or someone like for sure someone got into Floyd and Floyd making those bets. Like, nobody posts their bets on Instagram for millions and millions of dollars unless there's an angle, whether they're sponsored by the casino or they're— so yeah, I think he was moving money for someone. But someone introduced— I sat next to him at a Miami Heat playoff game, and he liked my friend who was sitting next to me, got like, took a liking to her, and so they became friends. And so we somehow had a situation where for an afternoon, him and the guy, his business, his business guy and I were talking and Floyd was going to make the bets, but it just didn't work. Like, I told him I wanted to bet one game and they said, no, we like the other side. And I was like, that's cool, but can you please go bet this one for me? And they're like, no, we don't want to do that. Like, you know, we want to bet the other side. And I was like, okay, well then just, we'll just bet against each other. You bet that side, I'll bet this side. And they're like, no, but you always win. We can't do that. And I was just like, yeah, I'm out. I can't deal with this anymore. So that was it.

Is the motivation on all this getting rich or is it getting a rush? Is it an intellectual challenge? What's the, uh, like, what's, what's the motivation?

Not a rush. No, the rush is like, I'm not a rush guy. It's, um, I think it's the intellectual challenge. Also, I, I realized as I've gotten older that I, I take pride in putting myself in really, really stressful situations and seeing how well I perform. Like, that's like my, probably a weakness of mine is I'll put myself in these really stressful situations. Without knowing it, but I'll do that.

What's an example of that?

Like being all in Bitcoin since 2013, like for 160 to 170% of your net worth at various different points in time.

160. So you borrowed?

Yeah. So betting on sports, um, and making money was challenging. And in terms of you're winning money, like I was living in Canada at the time, um, I was betting all over the world and having to receive money from people all over the world. And so my bank accounts were constantly getting closed. Even in Canada, I was like, I'm a professional gambler, this is what I do. I pay my taxes as a professional gambler. It's one of the few dummies in Canada who actually— because in Canada, tax gambling is considered non-taxable. So I was like one of the few people who actually paid tax on their gambling winnings in Canada because I was considered an expert. Um, but I didn't have to, but I did that. Probably stupid on my part. But yeah, so just that and then seeing how easy it was to move money with Bitcoin. And then the other part of it was later on in life, I left Canada after I got tired of paying taxes in Canada and I moved to Monaco. And that entire principality is built on minimizing your tax exposure. It's, you know, you're looking at flats that are like the current places in Monaco now that just got built. Are $85, $90 million for a 3,000-square-foot condo. It's the most expensive real estate in the world. And the only reason it's that expensive is because there's a limited amount of land and everyone lives there because the tax is zero, zero tax. And so my point is, is that that whole, that's like a Swiss bank account. It will move. People are willing. But whereas there's a lot of people, whether they're, whereas Bitcoin, you can, you can, you don't have to invest in Monaco real estate to hedge. You can, have your money in your pocket. You don't have to worry about a bank. You can move money intermediate without any intermediaries, any permission. Even the bank accounts I had, whether they be in Monaco or Canada, they'd always been like, why are you sending this money? Where is it going? Why did you get it? And now it's even worse. So that was part of it. I like the math behind it. It made sense to me as a math guy. Yeah, I just, and I'm an independent guy to begin with. And so I didn't really click for me until later on. I heard about it maybe 5 or 6 times before it finally clicked. It finally clicked because I was betting with someone in China who had owed— who had a really difficult time in paying me money. Also, I was living in Vancouver before I moved to— and my entire apartment building was owned by Chinese expats who were literally laundering their money in Canadian real estate. None of them lived in my building. The entire building was empty except for 6 people, but the entire building was sold. And all of Vancouver, you ever been to Vancouver, Canada? It's an entire money laundering operation. The real estate is all owned by foreign people trying to escape regimes that are, you know, they're just capital flight. So Bitcoin just made sense. Okay, I'm going to go buy a condo in Canada, or I'm going to buy some Bitcoin and put it in my wallet to escape some totalitarian regime, some capital flight.

So were you taking the $10 million gross earnings and just going straight to Bitcoin?

When you're dealing with, um, you know, I'm not saying that you're shady or you do ever do anything illegal, but when gambling, as an outsider, well, as an outsider, when I hear about gambling, I, you know, I watched the movie Casino and I like, I know, like, I think of mafia and whatever. When you're owed money, and I had read stories how you were owed money and you talked about it. What's up with the gambling culture? Do people actually pay their debts just on a handshake agreement?

That's a good threat though. You look, I'm gonna call you like at least 5 or 6 times to get paid.

I know, I didn't even— I was pretty bad at it, to be honest. Like, the way to get paid is to be the most annoying person in that person's life. So, so I had a, I had a famous poker player who's like a really good dude, but he was for sure degenerate, and he owed me money. And, um, not, not the—

like, this guy Erik Lindgren, he talked like, you know, that's what I was referring to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I would just like, I would just like, if he won a tournament, I would like get on a plane and just like be there when they paid him. I would just like hand out and just like, you just gotta, you know, but you also have to be like, kind of like understanding that this guy needs to live his life and also have some money. But you know, he was a guy who, who at the time owned a piece of Full Tilt. So they had all this individual, all this imaginary money that they thought they were all going to be so rich. And so he didn't really worry, you know, you didn't really worry about getting paid because he thought eventually they'd get paid by Full Tilt Poker, but then Full Tilt Poker got shut down. So all these guys, Yeah. Anyways, yeah, that's what you do. You just be annoying.

What inspired you to buy the soccer team? So like where, like how long had you had that idea before you end up doing it?

I wanted to buy an NBA team and then I worked, I saw like the sausage was made and I was like, yeah, the NBA is not for me.

What do you mean by that?

Why not? I mean, for one, the franchise valuations are going up and up and up and up. It's a very, very, very difficult business to buy because you're competing with the richest people in the world who want these assets. So it's very difficult. And then I just found— I started finding the sport not that interesting anymore after seeing, like, how everything was— I didn't— I didn't like— I think the, the bubble for me kind of ended it because it was during that time when the league became, like, which is cool because the league was primarily— it became like almost like a social cause versus. And I thought that's good for society in some ways, if you believe that. And, but for me, it just became too much. I just wanted, I just want to sport. I just like sport. So around that time, I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to, I think people, I think where the NBA maybe missed things is I think a lot of people wanted to escape during coronavirus into sport. I want, I, okay, forget about other people. I wanted to escape the shitty, the whatever, the riots, the burn, the whatever. I wanted to escape all that into sport. And I'm watching the NBA and it's, and maybe, maybe the answer isn't for, maybe the answer isn't escape for people who are, I'm not American, but maybe for Americans who are living through it and they really believe that, that whatever, that's cool. But for me, I was just like, yeah, I don't want to watch this. Like, I just want, I just want to, I want to watch a basketball game. I don't want to have like a message. And so, yeah, it just became, it became too much. I think in some ways it became overwhelming. And then also you're, I was working for the Mavericks at the same time and they were in the bubble and I'm hearing the stories from them and you have like African American coaches who are like really upset with what's happening as they should be. The players are upset. Just became really draining emotionally in a way that made me really kind of sad. And I started watching football more because soccer was the first sport to start up after COVID. And so I just got really into it. And we were already building models to begin with before then. I thought, you know what, I want to— this is new, it's exciting. It's more mathematical in the sense of it's unsolved. It's a lot more, there's a lot, the game tree is bigger. It's more nuanced. Basketball's pretty simple. You get a top 5 player, you put him on the court, you surround him with other players, but he's the guy, like, it's called heliocentrism. And then you profit. And then you trade him for Anthony Davis and won first. Apparently. I don't know. But that's it. You just find a guy like Luka or LeBron or Jokic or whatever., and off you go, but it's not that difficult.

You said we, you said we're, we're, we are building models. I think Sean and I were talking and he was like, this guy's like a lone wolf. Uh, and I don't know the truth and I want you to tell me the truth. Do you, um, I think you don't have a family. I think you're, you're, uh, and I think that that from an outside perspective, it doesn't seem like you have this massive company.

That part, I'm a lone wolf. Yeah. Okay. Now I am a lone wolf when you put it that way. Yeah. I've always been very, yeah. But I have people who've worked for me. I have people who have built my model. Yeah.

Can you explain that? What's the organization?

What's your team look like?

So I have had, now my organization, not counting the football team, which is completely separate, which is like 250 people or something work for me. I don't know how many it is.

Um, maybe less, I don't know, Account Academy players. Um, but no, I just have like— I still do my basketball betting. I spend zero time on it. It's an automated program. But when I first started betting on basketball programmatically with a model, when I decided that my method works but it only works if my mindset is good— if I want to have a life and have like emotional relationships with females and have a partnership, whatever, and I'm upset, I'm making bad decisions when I'm gambling— it's harder to be like a perfect arbiter of what's right and what's wrong and what's the right information when you're the input. So I wanted to automate me, basically. And so, um, so yeah, I, I hired a couple different quants unsuccessfully. They weren't great. Um, kept trying. And then a friend of mine, a poker player by the name of— well, he played poker— this guy named Brandon Adams was teaching at Harvard at the time. And I was playing poker with him, really, really smart guy. And he said, I have this student that I think you need to talk to. He's a genius and he'd be perfect. And I met him and that was the guy who basically together we built our simulation models that really took me to the next level, which was not the little halftime thing, which I made a lot of money on. This was now full game bets on, you know, sides, totals, everything. And so him and I together built— and our operation was myself, this individual, and then one person who basically was— two people who were putting the bets in and also making the lineups. And then me and my— the person, we call him the Wiz because he doesn't want to be— nobody wants to know who he is, but he's out there. What's up? And we had a falling out. He doesn't— we're not falling out, but he— when I went to go work for the Mavs, I basically turned over the business to them. And he ran it for a while, didn't enjoy it, they didn't do that well, and he left. And then when I quit the Mavs, we started back up again, and, um, that was it. So I basically did the gambling again, not for myself, but for the people who worked for me, to allow them to make— continue to make a lot of money. Because I've had guys who've worked for me now for over 12 or 13 years with a gap with the gap appeared in the Mavericks. And so, um, they run everything and they do everything.

Dude, you're basically running it like a, like a small little seed fund, Sean. You know what I mean?

Like a hedge fund.

Algorithmic hedge fund, like Jump minus, you know.

So, you know, those guys, they measure their success on, um, you know, IRR or, you know, annual returns. And if, if they could get 20%, 30% returns, what's a good return, annual return for you? What's a bad annual return for you? Where do you land? You know, I know what multifamily can get you. I know what private equity can get you. I know what venture can get you.

Like, and has, you know, now I, we said this before, I don't pay attention to too much to sports, but I think it's fucking insane though that like every sport is basically a gambling thing now. Like, it's like gross. Like, it's, I think it's weird. But not weird.

It's gross.

Yeah. It's messed up. I think it's wrong. And, but does that make you richer then because you have more retail investors?

Yeah. This, the amount of, I don't even look like last night, like I probably lost more money on Fart Coin yesterday. My fart coin holding on paper than I would rake to make in an entire year betting NBA. So I don't care what we make in the NBA. I just do it because it's meaningful for the people who work for me and they have a massive profit share in it. So that's why we do it.

So let me just recap a couple of things. You said if every bet, you know, low end, 4 or 5%, good, 9, 10%, that means you need to bet like $100 million of total betting volume, total dollars bet to make $10 million.

Is that right? Yeah. Well, you don't need $100 million to do that because you're doing it every day, multiple times over. And so, yeah. So yeah, like that's exactly right.

Yeah. So couldn't you have just applied your brain to like buying HVAC companies as like private equity and gotten better returns, right? Like, you know, like I always think about this with like, if I hear somebody's a pro blackjack player, I'm like, first of all, I don't even know if that's technically a thing. I don't know if blackjack is like a game you can get an edge in anymore. But secondly, If you're that good and that smart, like, couldn't you just apply it to an easier game and made more money? Like, don't you think about that for yourself?

If my dad was Ray Dalio, I probably would have went a different path. But unfortunately my dad was, my dad was a Greek gambler who spent his time at the racetrack. So this is what I knew. You know, I don't know what else to say.

But you have done it. You have done it, right? You're buying a team. That seems like it could be a great business move. And you did crypto.

Well, what do you do with your money now? Do you, like, your income or your investments? Do you do any boring stuff? I mean, I mostly do boring stuff. Index funds.

Is that— so that's still how you roll then?

Um, correct.

Yeah.

Wow.

Every dollar I make betting sports goes into Bitcoin. Has forever.

I just, so you've made more money off Bitcoin than you have sports betting.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I've done very well with Bitcoin. I've done very well, but you know, what's, what's your end game with Bitcoin?

Is it hold forever? Is it Bitcoin becomes global, you know, reserve currency? Like where does it, there's no exit with Bitcoin, right? For you.

I don't know. I wish I could do better Michael Saylor impersonation, but I don't know this guy. I like this guy. I feel like his end game is crazy as this guy is. I feel like he's kind of. He's a savant. Like, he's kind of figured, what is your endgame? I don't know, dollars? What am I gonna do with dollars? Like, sorry, I'm not— they're printing more of it. It's not— doesn't seem like it works for me. I remember, like, being in COVID, living in Malibu during COVID and the houses that I had rented had gone up in value, like, triple. Like, rich people's stuff was going— becoming more and more expensive as more and more money entered the system. So what's my endgame? I don't know, protect my wealth, I guess. Maintain my sovereignty. That's my endgame. I don't know, like, I just, to be clear, I don't have it in— I like Bitcoin, but it's still— I'm not like the pure Bitcoin guys, like the guys who are like, have their own seed and they have it memorized in their head. Like, that's not me. My money's in iBit. It's in the bank. It's with a third party. It's not smart, but I like my quality of life. I don't want to be my own bank. Like, being my own bank was cool before. People knew what crypto was. Now being your own bank is not cool. Like for me, just to be clear, like I love Bitcoin. I love the self-sovereignty of it. That's the ethos, but my money is custodied with institutions, unfortunately.

Do you own anything? Like, do you own any real estate and cars and, uh, like items or do you live light?

Yeah, dude. I feel like a lot of these guys think I'm like some kind of like, I'm like an alien who just dropped into the world that has nothing. Well, you love Bitcoin and watches sports all day.

Sean and I actually both rent homes and I don't, I actually don't own a lot of stuff. I like living light. Sean does too. Uh, and we don't actually own houses. We, we like to rent houses.

Uh, you, you sold all your shit to buy the dip? That's incredible. That's amazing. I gotta ask you a different question. What are you into now? Like we asked you a bunch about the past, but like what's the future shit you're really like, somebody said you're into biohacking or you're into like health.

Yeah, Sam mentioned something interesting about like owning things and I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding.

What am I into now? I'm into biohacking. I'm into, yeah, I don't know. Like I think like I'm into, it's interesting because I'm really into like analog things, like records. Books. Oh, I'm, I'm, you know, old games, old like pinball machines. Yeah.

Um, are you like detoxing from phone? Like, your phone goes away?

Yeah, I'm getting this new— oh, I forgot what it's called— but this new thing that's black and white. I'm trying to—

what's it called?

I'm into that. Um, I think Obox is the new one that, that just came out. Palma 2, I think, is what it is. It's supposed to be getting shipped Um, but that looks really cool.

We love those things. I used to prank all the time. Um, and then there's like Daylight, which is like another, like dumb phones basically.

Daylight's nice. I've used Daylight.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm into that. I'm into like, to be honest, like, uh, during COVID I, I started getting into like Western life. Like, it's going to sound crazy, but like, I want a ranch.

Yeah. Sam bought a ranch. I bought a ranch. My friend, do you want to be buddies?

Like, I would love to. I bought a yacht before. I was like on the Mediterranean cruising. And now I'm like, no, I want a ranch. I want horses. I want simple life. That's what I'm into.

What are you doing for biohacking? Like, what, what, what's your kind of like, what's— I guess maybe what are you finding valuable or helpful or you're seeing?

The best thing? Yeah, I do. I do a lot of peptide stuff. I kind of grew up in like, I spent a lot of time, I should say, in like rich guy LA circles for a minute playing poker. And all these guys were on like TRT and HGH and all this other stuff. And they looked great, but they weren't necessarily optimizing for living longer. So HGH is great, you feel awesome on it, but you're definitely not living longer taking it. TRT, I think, can be good for some people. It didn't work for me. I tried it, it made me, um, irritable. So I do other things to raise my testosterone, like I take some rhodiola, whatever, and fadotia artensis, and I do a lot of squats and kettlebell stuff. And so I do quite well with that. Um, but what am I taking? I'm taking peptides for the most part. I think the best thing I've ever done— I do a lot of sauna, um, red light therapy.

I would say the best thing that Bryan Johnson regimen—

I mean, yeah, I, I admire what he's doing. It— I just think like, what's the— I mean, he's doing it for science, I guess, but for me it's— yeah, not for me. I'm not that bad, but I do have, you know, I do take about 20 supplements a day for sure. I inject myself with some peptides when I'm diligent about it. But I think the best thing I've ever done was stem cells.

Are you doing peptides and stem cells for injury recovery or you're doing pep— I thought peptides is like for injury recovery. Do you use it for other stuff?

A peptide's like a protein. Yeah. Like, or an amino acid, I guess, which is a precursor to proteins.

Yeah. It's a precursor. You can find a peptide. It's a precursor for whatever you want to solve for. So like some is for injury recovery, like DPC-157.

That's what I took. I took that on my Achilles. It was great.

Do you do that if you have an injury? Or like, I feel great. Like, do you— did you—

were you in pain? So you're probably—

yeah, I mean, I, I— yeah, no, you look great. Both you guys look like— I'm not sure how, but you guys look like you're doing great stuff for your health. But I think, yeah, do you do— you people do it for injury? I did it because I wanted to feel better. And, um, I found this place in Panama that I went to, Stem Cell Institute, and, um, they were kind of the one of the pioneers behind it. Dr. Riordan, I think that's like— I think, I think Mel Gibson's dad may have talked about this on the Joe Rogan Show. I'd already gone there, but I think there's like an episode where Mel Gibson talks about his dad going there to get stem cells. I've seen similar things, like it's unbelievable.

Is this the one where it's like its own sovereign land?

No, I don't know what that is, but this is just Panama. You're at like— you stay at a Hilton. Last time, I don't think it was sovereign. Um, oh, I know what you're talking about. I do know what you're talking about. No, it's nothing like that.

Aren't they doing genetic, uh, they're doing genetic, uh, what, Chris, what's it called? Were you, uh, yeah, they're doing that, right?

It's like a Peter Thiel thing. They're doing genome editing.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't want none of that. I just want, I want building blocks into my body to make me young. So if you can give me the stuff that little baby has to grow a fucking actual human being.

Wait, but what are these guys doing? It's like their own little sovereign area and they're like building like the future Yao Ming super baby or something.

You know, like the network state stuff, right? Where it's basically like, oh, if we can get, like, you know, I invest in Praxis. It's like people who want to create new lands where they can have like, you know, let's say, uh, more, they can have different rules, right?

For themselves.

Yeah. It's like a, it's like a land where like Ayn Rand is the president, you know, like it's, it's like libertarian, uh, land.

You got to watch the documentary. It's hilarious. Cause Brian goes there. I think he goes there for like a full plasma, like swap with his son and his dad or something like that. I don't remember the exact procedure he did, but he goes and it's like the two scientists who created this institute and they show the guy and the guy's clearly like 22 years old. He's so young. And, but he has this mustache and he has glasses with like a rope as if like, bro, we can see through the disguise. You're 22 years old. And the narrator was like—

Was he standing on another kid's shoulders with a trench coat on?

Literally, exactly.

He literally looked like that.

And he's like, you know, I think these guys' hearts are in the right place, but you know, they're not like 20-year PhDs, if you know what I mean. It's like, yeah, because he's 20. It was so funny. You got to watch that part.

Yeah, I actually did watch it. And I know what you're talking about now. And I remember like, I had my finger, this is where I need my digital whatever, but I had my finger on the fast forward the entire time. Because you can't watch it all the way through. It's just like, what is this? This is not that interesting. But yeah, I do know what you're talking about now. Yeah, it's nothing like that. This is more for you have a rotator cuff injury. Um, some parents were there with some kids who were, um, were autistic and they were doing that therapy. There's people with MS. There's a lot of different stuff that they were doing. And I had the most— I've done it maybe 7 times. Um, the injuries you have will repair permanent. That's permanent. The Superman feeling you have for 3 to 4 months afterwards is fleeting, but it feels amazing. For that 2 or 3 month period. And there's a lot of physiological effects that you know that you got a good batch. Sometimes you don't get a good batch or it doesn't take, but if you had a good batch, you'll know it. And it's great. I haven't done it in a while, but it is amazing.

Do you do any drugs or drink alcohol? Do you get fucked up at all? No. So you're sober?

Yeah, I think the last time I ever got— I mean, I was betting on NFL football and Canadian football in university and waking up with a hangover. I was just like, yeah, this doesn't work.

So you've been in this vice, this A world of ice, but not substances.

And like, you're like, I'm a control. I like to be in control of myself. I like to control my emotions. I like to be making good decisions. I don't like to be unable to think rationally. So alcohol doesn't do it for me.

Dude, this is great. Thanks for doing this, man. Where should people follow you? Is Twitter still the best place or X?

Yeah, I mean, follow the football club. I'm not looking to promote myself, but I would love for the football club to get more You know, we were doing some great things this year at the football club. And then, uh, you guys won, right?

You won the—

like, we were recently promoted to La Liga 2. We had an amazing first start of the season. And then we had a game, we had a stretch where we played 22 games in 6 days. And I failed the culture in that I wasn't able to demand that we do things that were proper for rest and health for the players. And we ran our players into the ground during that period because I didn't have— you know, that was something that the coaches wanted to do. And then we suffered some injuries, and we've been basically— we're in the midst of a 6-game losing streak right now, which is sad. Um, and we're paying for it from what we did in November, which was a cultural failure on my part.

So are you able to like apply the biohacking shit that you're learning to, uh, your sports psychology?

Did you think that you were going to go from like doing these bets and hanging out with your dad in Vegas to owning a team and, uh, implementing like whatever you want to implement? That's pretty wild, right? That's a good ending so far. Or it's not the end, but it's a good part of the story. You did think that. You thought that.

Dude, you're insane. You're the man.

Awesome.

You're the man.

Thanks for coming on, dude.

Yeah, you're welcome. Well, thank you, man. That's it. That's the pod.

Like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off. On the road, let's travel, never looking back.