CEO Lessons: Bulls**t Mission Statements, Firing People & Saying ‘NO'
And it was an issue.
He's got the deal done. And they're like, wait, you don't have the trademark? He's like, yeah, but there's no other Native deodorant. They're like, okay, junior, what are you talking about? That's not how this works. Um, you know, I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to.
I put my all in it like no days off.
On the road. All right. Today we thought it'd be fun to do an episode all about how we actually run our companies. So we've been running companies for like, I don't know, 10, 15 years now. And like many people out there at the beginning, we did a bunch of dumb stuff. And so we're gonna admit and confess to some of the dumbest things that we did running our companies. And then talk about what we do now that's actually like, we found that works. So the stuff that didn't work and the stuff that works, and this is around, you know, everything from like, you know, mission statements, how we used to think that these were like super important and how we treated them versus what we do now, or branding and naming our companies. Or goal setting. Um, these are kind of like the shortcuts that we use now. So what, what actually that we found works through the painful process of making embarrassing mistakes. That's what I think we're gonna do today.
Yeah, we got about like 5 or 8 categories of like on hiring, on creating comp plans, on having boundaries with staff. These actually sound like boring when we're like just, when I'm just reading that off, but I promise you it's actually, we have like interesting stories behind each one. And stuff we wish we would've done earlier that I deeply regret that I didn't do now, or that I didn't do then. But yeah, we'll, we'll go through all the stuff that we actually use on a day-to-day basis to run our companies. The touchy-feely stuff that's actually really important.
So I thought it'd be fun for us to share shit we do when we run our companies. What are our almost like management hacks or shortcuts or like the methods that we use, which as a disclaimer, probably not the best, probably not what they teach you at Harvard Business School or what, you know, like very polished, you know, seasoned executives would do.
I remember when I started one of my early companies, it was my internal mission statement was to hire 10,000 people. And I then I hired like 2 people and I was like, shit, does anybody got an eraser? Yeah, yeah. Like, how do I make this 10? It was horrible. Um, and then it was like, um, and then the mission statement for the employees is like, look, like we're going to change whatever. Like right now the word is democratize. We're democratizing the financial markets or whatever. It's like, oh my God, whatever that equivalent is, is what I said. Like we're going to change the world one newsletter at a time. And so my mission statement—
did you really say that?
No, but it was probably like as lame. I don't know. That would be the worst if I said that. But no, they're pretty late now. They're way more, um, so here's what I tell people. I go, here's my, the mission for the business. This first one, it's very selfish, which is I want to work on cool shit with cool people and have a dope life. That's just what I tell people. I go, so it's very selfish. I just want to work with cool people on interesting things. And that's more so the mission than anything. And then it's like, and if we are able to do this, this, and this, that will also be cool. Um, versus a far more grand thing. My mission statements aren't nearly as grand. Are yours?
I am in the exact same bucket. So definitely used to be like changing the status quo, you know, on my Steve Jobs shit. And you know, I, 'cause that's who you looked up to, looked up to Steve Jobs, looked up to Elon Musk, and he's like, you know, create an interplanetary species. It's like, oh, okay, cool. Uh, what's my version of that? Like, you know, I'm, I'm not trying to get to Mars and like make humankind, uh, you know, interplanetary. But I was trying to do that.
Do you remember that story of Steve Jobs? He's trying to recruit the guy from Pepsi, and Steve Jobs is like, you're just going to sell sugar water for the rest of your life, right? Fuck you, Steve. What a dick.
Now we're like, Logan Paul, genius, puts sugar in water, sells it to children.
Dude, the audacity.
So I'm like you now. Uh, I— here was the— here's the notes I wrote on my answer for this. Uh, my— on my little cheat sheet, I wrote I don't kid myself anymore. I'm honest. I'm building a lifestyle business for me and my team. Almost exactly what you just said, which is I want to do dope shit with cool people, right? So do cool shit with cool people. And in a way that leads to an awesome lifestyle, meaning I'm not trying to kill myself currently running the business. And I'm trying to have a financial outcome for me and my team that lets us all elevate our lifestyles, right? Like that's, that is the, This business is a vehicle to have an enjoyable lifestyle, which is really funny because in Silicon Valley, lifestyle business is the, um, it's the equivalent of saying no offense, uh, to start a sentence. It's like lifestyle business is how VCs pat you on the head and say, that's cute. Uh, oh, oh, $1 million of revenue. That's cute. You know, you know, we, we don't invest in lifestyle businesses, right? If this is just a lifestyle business for you, we're not interested, right? You're, you're low ambition, which in Silicon Valley is where I live, is low status. However, for me, I feel like I broke out of the Matrix and I was like, wait, what the fuck are all these people talking about? The point of life is to have a great lifestyle. What? I don't want another— I don't want to do something else with my life. I'm not trying to have a bad life. I'm trying to have a good life for me, for my family, for my team. We all want the good life. Okay, let's do a project that's fun and interesting with fun and interesting people. In a way that we all get rich. Is that so much to ask? It's like, that is now the blanket mission statement on all of my projects. And, um, I don't know if that's inspiring to the troops, but it's inspiring to me. And I hope that it just attracts people who are down with that and not looking for the, uh, the rah-rah, you know, save the world.
I actually think, I think that is a bit inspiring to be honest, to like the right type of person. Um, and, uh, I, I, I, at least when I talk to people, it seems like, yeah, that sounds wonderful. Another thing that changed with me is when I start new companies, I pick business models where I can afford to pay hires a lot of money. Because I remember when I was starting a lot of my stuff, I'm like, man, I don't, I can only, I don't have enough money to pay a high quality person a lot of money.
I, it's a trap.
Yeah. I'm like, I wish I could afford to pay someone $300,000 or $200,000 a year. So I could recruit a certain type of person so I could spend time with them. Um, and so that has changed as well.
Well, like, what's an example? So like The Hustle, traditionally, you know, media companies, uh, when they start, obviously they don't make a ton of revenue. You're putting out free content. Um, and writers are typically not that well paid. However, like, so would that count as it was more in the, towards the bad end of the spectrum or was it on the good end? Cause you did hire people like, Steph Smith and Trung and I hired great people eventually.
Yeah, I hired great people eventually. But like, for example, a good media— like you could, you could run your media company a few different ways. You could particularly for sellers, for ad salespeople, you could pay them $60,000 a year and say they have a quota of only $400,000 and they get— they make $105,000 when they hit their on-target earnings. Or you could go hire someone who you're going to pay $200,000 base, plus a higher commission, and their expectation is that they're gonna sell $2 or $3 million worth of stuff. And typically those people who are more competent and capable, I find are more enjoyable to be around. And so like things like that where I'm building a business that hires less people who I pay more, 'cause that setup I think is more enjoyable.
So I had the same problem 'cause my first business was in the restaurant industry. And the restaurant industry is basically like, you know, what is, what, what is the worst type of, business you could, you could select. I think it's probably, I don't know if it's the worst, but it's down there. It's hanging out with the worst, whatever it is.
Right.
So I'm just saying business model, right? Business model is almost all of them fail. Um, even when they succeed, they have like 10% net margins typically. And you got to open up like multiple locations to get to ever make it big or have enough cash flow from a business like that to hire high quality, like, uh, you know, highly seasoned people. And so I remember meeting the guy who ran Chipotle. I think he was the CEO or COO of Chipotle at the time. And we were trying to create the Chipotle of sushi. And I was like, all right, you know, like, give me your advice. I didn't even know what question to ask, but I was like, give me your advice. And he's like, well, think of it this way. Your entire product is in the hands of somebody who makes $9 an hour and doesn't want to be there. And every customer, everything you're telling me right now about how great the user experience is going to be. That's true for restaurant 1. It might be true for restaurants 2 and 3. By restaurant 4, it's no longer true because you're not there anymore, uh, to do all those amazing things and give that amazing user experience. He goes, the trick in this business is whoever can figure out how to get minimum wage employees to give somebody a good experience, uh, they, you get, you get to win. That's the winning condition. He goes, so, you know, for like Chipotle, we ended up doing a bunch of things to try it, try to improve that. He's like, you know, I don't know if we did it fully, but like they did a couple of things. Like for example, If anybody, if you're a manager at Chipotle and anyone you manage becomes a manager of a restaurant, you get $10,000 whether you work at that company or not. Just like ever. It's like you had a hand in— Oh, that's sick. And leading that person to be a— I don't know if they still do this, but at the time they did. They also changed the title. So like the manager was called like restaurateur or something like that. And they paid them above market. And they're like, you know, we're doing all these things to try to fix it. Starbucks did the same thing, giving people benefits so that they stick around and actually stick with the job versus really high churn. But nobody's really figured that out. Point is, I remember it just wasn't a lot of fun to be in that business because I couldn't relate, you know, all the things I love. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm thinking about ideas or, you know, raising capital. I got big goals, big dreams, and I'm coming into work every day with somebody whose goal and dream is to get off work early. That is the, like, that would be the, the best thing that could happen to them at work that day. And I was like, shit, That's not that inspiring every day to like kind of, and I don't mean that to knock anybody, it's just the truth. It's like you, you're going to hang around certain people when you run a business. Ideally you would be around people who are very, very like-minded to you in the sense of they share similar values and goals and aspirations, and then it becomes contagious and then they're sharing learnings with you. And like, I remember we interviewed, I remember we were interviewing people for like this position because we kept having people flake out. They would just leave or they would steal or stuff like that. And like, my buddy who was interviewing, he goes, well, I like this person, um, they had all their teeth. I was like, what? And he's like, I don't know. He's like, I'm, I'm just looking for symbols. I just— he's like, last 3 people stole from us and that sucked. I just want somebody who's not going to steal from us. Like, that's my new bar first. And like, after that, I could figure out higher, higher level requirements.
And so did you see on, um, did you see on the TV show Bear where they hire this you know, this guy, and on the first day they catch him outside smoking crack and they're like, I think I need to fire you, but I should go, but I should go ask.
And he's like, yes, chef, fire him. Yeah. And by the way, there's one lesson in there, which is my dad told me something. He goes, look, uh, you're building a small business. And he goes, but look, but think about it. You're still spending like every waking moment thinking about how to make this thing successful. He goes, if you worked on a big business, you don't have to spend double the hours. You're still gonna spend every waking moment trying to think of how to make it successful. A big business and a small business both take the same amount of time. Why would you choose a small business? And that to me was the right advice for me, for who I was. That's not the right advice for everybody, but like somebody out there needs to hear that right now, which is that like this idea that a, a small thing is somehow easier or, or less painful, it's just not true.
It is not true. And it feels nice to be able to like pay people a lot of money or hire a certain type of person that makes your day-to-day far more enjoyable. Um, talk about the naming thing. My opinion has changed on that to align with yours.
So one, one thing we have here is branding or naming at the beginning. So, um, I've evolved my philosophy. So I, I used to try to get the whole thing right, right away. I was very precious about my idea and I wanted it to my baby to be cute and be ready for its first day of school. And then I realized that nobody cares about my baby and I have no customers and nobody's paying attention. This thing could be called dog crap, you know, it doesn't matter, uh, until it matters. And so now here's the balance that I figured out for me. Um, in most cases I try to get the name right off the bat because changing the name is kind of annoying. You lose the brand recognition. Um, and I try to get the trademark because I made that mistake before of not owning my trademark and having to change my name. A year or two in because I realized, oh, I'll never be able to sell this without owning the trademark. And so that was a big mistake.
Uh, I don't know if that's true, dude.
What do you mean?
I don't own— I sold The Hustle without owning that trademark.
You didn't own a trademark for The Hustle as a media company? You didn't own anything? Because I know they have it now. We looked it up.
They have it now.
But, but what happens is if they look and they see that they can't get it because it's taken, now you have a problem. Now you're either going to get negotiated down.
Is that true? I see. I didn't even know that.
Like when Moyes was selling Native deodorant, he didn't own the trademark and it was an issue. He's got the deal done and they're like, wait, you don't have the trademark? And he's like, yeah, but there's no other Native deodorant. They're like, okay, junior, what are you talking about? That's not how this works. Um, you know, and so then he's like, okay, uh, who the, he's like, I'll just go file for it. They're like, nope, it's taken by some guy, some woman or some guy sitting in Palo Alto. Doing nothing, squatting on it. And he goes to that person, he's like, hey, I'd like the trademark. He tells the story on his episode of the pod, I think is like one of the first 10 episodes of this podcast. But the short version is he goes and he offers the person some like, you know, he's like, hey, can I have it? And they're like, no. And he's like, okay, I'll buy it, like, you know, $2 grand. And they're like, no. And then they figured out that he's selling his company and then the price went like way up. And I think he ended up having to buy it for like either like a quarter million dollars or like $1 or $2 million. He had to buy the trademark at the last minute. That's so crazy. You know, it's fine when you're, he's selling the company for $100 million, but like very painful process. Um, you know, to, to do that, better off just having it.
You taught me something. I, I thought that they were nonsense, but I, but I also used to think name, I mean, look, I, my company was called The Hustle. That's a horrible name. One time I had this conference called ConCon, the content conference. Like I'm, I'm, I, I, I, my first, the first business that I started making money online, it was called Itch Juice Baby. Like I, like I'm horrible with names. Um, and, uh, but now I do actually think they're way important. Before I was like, names are bullshit. It doesn't matter what you call it. Someone's going to come. Uh, now I'm like on board with naming and branding is very valuable.
I completely agree.
I think great design is a huge value add and costs almost nothing. To have great design versus okay to bad design, it's not actually more money that it takes. It's taste. You just have to have the right people to do it. You can pay for that taste. Like you can pay a fancy agency because you know they have the taste, but you could also just have taste yourself or find somebody that's cheaper that has taste. My feeling on design is I don't start with fancy design. I start with like, you know, whatever, simple design, and then I I set a milestone almost as a reward, which is if we get to X, then I'm going to fancy pants my design because it's more for me than it is really for anybody else at that moment. Um, but you know, if you're, if you're a consumer packaged good or something like that, then the packaging obviously super important. If you're a SaaS tool for whatever, your design, uh, you know, it doesn't matter as much.
Before I launched Hampton, I paid an agency. I found an awesome agency overseas. So it was like, I think $15,000 or $20,000 and we did a whole branding thing and I'm like, I can't believe I'm doing this. And it was totally worth it. Did I send you that presentation? It was really good. And I liked it.
I was like, oh, this is cool. And that's different. You wouldn't have— you would have never done that before.
I have. I never would have done that. It was totally worth it.
We both were very cheap with things before. I was— I wasn't cheap with spending money, but I was cheap with my time, meaning I placed no value on my time. And I think you were cheap with spending money even though you had a bunch of cash in the bank.
Not anymore.
Then when I saw you spend $20K on your branding before and I was like, oh, that makes sense. He's got a killer name for his community, Hampton. And then he's got like a really classy design that makes it feel elevated, which is my word of the year. Um, then I was like, oh yeah, what are the areas where I've been cheap? And one of mine, for example, was in recruiting. So I used to take pride in just recruiting myself by hand, hunting. And I would just be like, yeah, I'm gonna go find people and I'm gonna like message them and I'm gonna cold email them and I'm gonna convince them and I'm gonna interview them and I'm gonna, And now I hire recruiters and I'm like, oh, for which roles? For every role, anything. If I, if I need to hire, first thing I do, I just text my recruiter, this guy Carson. I'm like, yo, Carson, I need X. And he's like a great e-com recruiter. And so I'm like, Carson, I need a, I need X. And he's like on it. And he's like super aggressive. And so he's just like instantly will start sending me LinkedIn. I'm like, yes, no, yes, no.
He does. Is he a full-time employee or do you just pay him?
He's got his own agency. Um, he's his own recruit. He's his own solo shop. And so, so I use him to hire for these roles and it just saves a ton of time. And then I'm able to— and I have him sometimes I'll be like, yo, join this call so that you see what I ask so that when you're screening candidates, you just ask these questions before me, right? And I'm getting a way better result using recruiters. And yeah, you pay the commission when, when, when you hire the person, but like hiring a great person faster is is totally worth it.
So how do you, without blowing up this guy at Carson's spot, how do you pay him? Do you pay him a percentage?
Same as all recruiters. You pay a percentage of their first year salary.
And if they don't— And then do you pay him like 6 months later?
Uh, I pay him, I think what I do with him is I pay him like 30 days after they join. But if they don't work out, like, uh, like we had one person didn't, didn't work out 3 months in. So if they don't make it 3 months, then he just reimburses or credits it back or whatever.
And then do you, um, Do you do it for all, like even an entry-level position?
Everything. Anything I need. Anything I need now. I'm like, whatever I would spend the time doing, this guy is going to spend all of his time doing. And, um, so it just moves faster and he's better. And I'm like, why the fuck wasn't I using recruit? I used to, I used to take pride and I was like, what am I trying to save here? The, like, you know, let's say you hire somebody for $100 grand. Let's say the recruiter fee might be 15 or 20%. So you're going to pay $15,000 or $20,000. That's a lot of money. Yes. But I do it my business. If your business is working, then it makes total sense to be using recruiters to increase your pipeline and, and save time and get the, get good butts in seats faster versus trying to do it yourself. That's time you're not focused on the business that takes longer.
The biggest thing that's changed with me with hiring is reference checks. So like, for example, I messaged someone 2 days ago. I go, hey, I'm thinking about hiring this one person. Uh, do you think that they'd be decent at managing a small team? And it says, I don't think they could manage anyone, let alone themselves. That was the reply. And my reply to my reply to that was, uh, all right, thanks. And I don't hire that person.
Like, it's so easy. No, your reply to that should be, thank you so much. What's your address? I'm sending you something because most reference checks will not give you honesty. When somebody goes out on a limb is actually like, yo, let me save you some pain here and give you my honest truth, even though it doesn't feel good to take an opportunity away from somebody. It's like, you know, sweet baby Jesus, thank you so much. I owe you one.
So like, yeah, I was like over the top, like nice to this guy. But, uh, reference checks are so important. And I do two things differently. The one, I always ask for like three and then I call those three and I go, who else did this person work with? I don't give a shit about the three that they give me. I'm just trying to like I'm trying to like figure out who I can reference, who I can speak to that they didn't provide. But also I won't blow up the applicant spot where if it's like, you know, it's like someone who will be a little bit secretive and not tell their current employer. And then so I do that like crazy. And then here's what I ask consistently. Here's the basically the point is, is I want to hear bad shit about the person and I want to figure out if the bad stuff is I'm okay with. And so I say, what are they on a scale of 1 to 10? They always say an 8 or 9. And I say, all right, how can they be a perfect 10? Like, what's missing? And then that's typically when they'll tell me, like, bad stuff. And I'm always looking for that bad stuff. And I'm like, um, well, uh, you know, they've made, like, mistakes doing X, Y, and Z. It's like, okay, I could put up with those types of mistakes. Or they, um, they, um, they, like, miss deadlines all the time. I'm like, well, I, I'm not going to put up with missed deadlines. That's, I'm not willing to put up with that. So I, like, I do a shit ton of reference checks now.
So someone taught me a good way to do reference checks. I don't remember the exact question, but it's something along the lines— there's two things that I do on the reference check. One is you're just trying to figure out, is this person one of the best people that they worked with at that company? And so I'll ask a question. I ask the following types of questions. I'll say, you know, my experience is that every company, there's like, you can look around the room and there's two or three people inevitably in every single company who like, they just have the team on their back and you're just, you just look at them and you think, man, if we didn't have this person, we would be in a rough spot. Uh, or like, You know, these things, these good things that are happening just probably wouldn't have happened if not for their force of will. Um, and I would be like, you know, who are the people? And I use this to recruit too. I'm like, who are the people like that at your company? Or I'll be like, would you count this person as one of those people? And, um, I'm just trying to see how much conviction they have of being like, oh yeah, for sure. Or like, yeah, you know, they're good, right? It's like, you could say yeah two different ways. I'm looking for which one of those it is. The second thing I'll ask is I'll be like, um, you know, I'm thinking about hiring this, like I'm leaning towards hiring them, uh, cause I'm kind of trying to disarm them. I'm trying to not make them feel like what they say is gonna like mess it up. But I'll be like, but you know, but what I don't, but I don't feel comfortable with is I don't know what they're not good at. And everybody has things they're not good at. I'm not sure what I, well, you know, like I know that they must have things that are gonna disappoint me or are gonna be, uh, things that they're not strong at. I just don't know them yet. What are they for this person? So I can, kind of feel like I have the full picture before I, before I go ahead and pull the trigger and hire them. And that's how I get them to kind of tell me those things.
Why did you write paid tests? What's that?
So my thing with hiring is, I would say two things have improved my hiring. Number one, paid tests instead of interviews. So I will spend the time, I'll spend 3 or 4 hours creating a paid test. So I create a doc that's, here's a brief. And I'll say, I'm going to pay you. And then depending on the role, might be $200, it might be $2,000. I'll pay you to spend a day on this. Um, because I want to see what you do because I just wrote words equal lies. It's like, I don't really, I'd rather just see your work than hear you tell me that you're good at work. And so paid tests is now I lean towards that in the end, that saves me a ton of time. The second thing I did, I have a buddy who I let invest in one of my companies that I didn't really need as an investor. But I kind of thought, I kind of realized that like, as a CEO, your job is just decision-making, good judgment over and over and over again.
Are you the CEO of your e-com business?
Um, no, I'm more like a chairman. So I'm not active day to day now, but, um, I will, I don't, uh, so what I'll do is I'm like, oh, CEO's job is just decision-making or any leader. Let me just forget the word CEO. Just any leader's job is decision-making. How do I get my decision-making to be better? And like the difference of making 10 to 20% better decisions every single month adds up. That creates a very different outcome. So I brought this guy in and what I told him, I go, you know, I really want your help hiring. And he's like, yeah, sure. I'll, you know, see if there's anyone in my network. I go, no, no, no. I want you to do 3 interviews for this one role for me. I'm hiring a CMO and a chief marketing officer. And I think this is the make or break hire for this business. I want you on the call and I want you to lead the interview and I want to listen. And so we did two things. First, I would interview them separately.
Wait, you, you, an investor, you, you let an investor do that?
He's my, one of my best friends and yes, he invested in my company. Got it. Uh, and he's, he's himself a founder and, and, and whatever. So he's just got a lot of experience and he, I've seen him make great hires. And so what happened was I would interview them, then he would interview them. I would like them and he'd be like, no trash. And I'm like, what? Interesting. What makes you say that? What did I like? What did you not like? And the thing for him was always like, yeah, I pressed him for specifics and he didn't have any. He's like, and what I realized was he presses for specifics way more than I was previously doing. So I would say like, I would try to figure out, do you have experience doing this? You know, how would you rate yourself in this? Tell me a story. They would tell me one story. What he would say is like, cool. What are the— what was the revenue when you started? What was it, you know, and then how did it grow in the first 18 months? And they're like, he's like, if they don't even know that number, then they're out. You know, if you're CMO, you don't know how much of the revenue changed from day 1 to day, you know, month 12 or whatever, you're out. And then he's like, they would say the number. He'd be like, cool. What were the 3 things that you did that most impacted that? And he's like, you know, if you can't tell me 3 wins you've had in the 3 years you've worked there that like most impacted the, the, and then he would say, oh, you did that thing? Okay, cool. Can you screen share real quick and just show me like, uh, you're saying you did this. Can you just show me how you think about this? I wanna hear you talk out loud. And I was like, oh, okay. There's a different level, level of specificity here that I need to be doing in my interview. So a very useful thing was seeing how a master does it so that I could up my game.
That's kind of an interesting thing cuz I've changed. I did a 180. What was your before?
What's your after?
I would create my before is I would create like the most ambitious goals because it was just like, it was like mental masturbation of like just using this spreadsheet and like saying like, yeah, we're going to 3x this year.
And then like, yeah, 5.
Look at that. Yeah. I'm like, I'd be like, yeah, can you like change that 3 to a 5 and change this 0 to a 9? And like, it's like, boom, we're there. All right. Get after it, guys. Like, and I didn't understand that like, A, they're the one doing the work. And so it's kind of bullshit that I'm like creating these crazy goals that there's no math behind it. I also thought that like really ambitious goals were inspiring. I actually think achievable goals are inspiring and I try to hit like 75% of the goals that we set. If I'm not hitting about 80%, my goal setting was quite bad. So hitting goals, Hitting, hitting goals that are not that ambitious, I think gets you a better outcome than missing incredibly ambitious goals. I like, it creates more momentum.
I agree with you. Momentum is, momentum is key.
And I didn't get that.
My goal thing now. Uh, so every time I start a project, whether it's a company or inside of a company, just like an initiative, I got this thing called the kickoff doc. It's a one-page doc that I fill out religiously and it's basically like starts as just like, what are we trying to do here? We're trying to do this in plain English. What are we trying to do? Then what does winning look like? And this is where I set two goals. So I have a floor goal and what I call the F yeah goal. The floor goal is basically like, you know, if it was below this, I'd be surprised and I'd be a little disappointed. And then the F yeah goal is what would have us running around here, chest bumping, being like, oh my God, I can't believe it happened. And now I have this range and I have kind of like my min and my dream. And of course we're going to shoot for the dream, but we're going to make sure that we also understand that like a win is a win and anything above this floor is a win. And we have the two targets. We ask ourselves, what would it take to get to the floor? What would it take to get to the, to the, to the FII goal to get to the ceiling? And so that's the first thing I do. The second thing I do is I set an anti-goal, learned this from Andrew Wilkinson, which was—
Yeah, that was smart.
You could achieve, you know, you could double revenue, but if I wake up every day and I'm stressed out, or if I doubled revenue but profits went to zero 'cause I spent so much on marketing, well then I kind of lost while winning. So anti-goals, like, you know, I'm not trying to work so hard I don't see my kids, right? Like in life, I think anti-goals are really important to counterbalance. What, and what are the, the specific thing here is what are the understandable traps we could fall into while trying to achieve those goals. So for example, with this podcast, you can be like, oh, I want to double rev— double downloads. Great. What's a trap you could fall into? Every day I'm on the algorithm trying to figure out what clickbaity shit I could do where I'm knocking on neighbors' doors, asking them how they made their money, and then I pants them and then I put a pie in their face. Like, yeah, that would do it, but I would sell my soul and lose some dignity and not have that much fun doing it. So that's like losing while winning. So I think anti-goals are really important. I started doing those. The next thing on goal setting is I realized that much more important than the goal, like, it's like I would do these like big bursts where it's like we do this planning and set this goal. Then like 3 months later it's like, hey, what's the goal? And then like, it's not even on the tip of anyone's tongue. And I'm like, oh shit, this is backwards. Like, first of all, I shouldn't be the one setting the goals. Um, because like, you know, in Game of Thrones, the opening scene, where Ned Stark has to, like, execute the guy and his son is like, oh, do you have to do this? Like, can't someone else do this? And he says, no, like, he who speaks the sentence must swing the sword. And it's like, I can't expect you to go do all the work for some goal I set sitting in my boxers in Excel, right? Like, now it's like, if I'm going to set a marketing goal, I'm going to set it with— and really, like, the CMO has to own that goal. They have to know that that's what they want, that that's what they think is achievable. I'm gonna push back or hold the standard, but they're gonna ultimately speak the sentence cuz they're gonna be the ones who swings the sword. So I make them do it. And then the second thing I do is I enforce that it's how do we keep this top of mind and at the tip of our tongue? And that's like creating rituals where we're seeing things daily and weekly that, um, tracks to it cuz it's far more important to regularly look at the KPIs and ask the right questions versus trying to set a great goal once and then never thinking about it or not really looking at it on a religious basis.
Do you lose your temper and yell? Have you ever made someone cry? Like an employee? Have you ever made an employee cry because you yelled at them?
Not because of— no, I never yell, but I've never made them cry because of yelling.
You've never done that?
I don't think I've ever yelled. No. I could be like kind of— I can I'll curse, like, I'll be like, hold on, like, what the fuck are we doing here? Right. But it's more of that that are just—
you've never been like, you're an idiot. You've never insulted someone or beat them up or just, you know, just punch them in the face or just—
I'm sure I've been rude, but I, but it's, you know, there's some finesse to my rudeness where it's like, uh, you know, it's a backhanded slap, not a front-handed slap type of thing.
There's been many times in the past where I've lost my anger and I'll be really just a huge bitch to someone. And, uh, and, uh, it's like, I deeply regret that. Not only do I regret that because it was just silly, but like, so the way that I used to like, uh, react to bad news is I would, um, I would yell at people sometimes and I would lose my temper and I would freak out. And I realized that that is just so weak. For so many, that is just a bad one. You can, I, I, I come to this, I've come to the conclusion I can't change people. So if I think someone is just repeatedly not screwing up, I, I just, I shouldn't have hired them. I made that mistake. I, someone is either great. You, you're normally a great executor who sometimes makes mistakes, or you're just never gonna change and you're just not good. Like, I think losers exist and I don't wanna surround myself with them., that's kind of like my, my attitude.
It's like your sign. It's like a store that's like, you know, no shoes, no shirt, no service. It's like losers exist. We must avoid them. Like, keep them out.
Yeah. Like, I think that that's real. Uh, like losers exist. And sometimes I've been a loser.
I tweeted this out when I was working at Twitch. I go, or like right after I left Twitch, I think I tweeted this out. I go, well, you know, uh, seems to be a pattern. You know, basically there's a pattern now, which is that when someone's great, odds are they're great kind of right away. Like, um, of course there are exceptions, but I would say the general rule is that the best people I've ever hired, it's pretty obvious within 3, 4 weeks that they're amazing and that they just stay amazing. And of the people that were late bloomers, the key there was just the, the only consistent pattern I found was I hired somebody before I even understood what role they should have or what the role is. And like when they had an undefined role, they didn't really do very well. But then when I defined a role for them and I said, look, this is what you gotta do. They performed. And what I found is that when I have a defined role for someone and they're not very good, it never, never really changes for me.
Yeah, you can't change them. You can't change people. And I used to be, I used to lose my temper and I would like curse and I would, and I definitely made people feel stupid. And that was, that's such a bad mistake because, uh, A, that's just wrong. That's just not how you should treat people. But B, I'm not going to get my desired outcome. They're not going to change.
Exactly. I still suck at that. I would be honest. I'm not like a yeller, but I can make people feel small. And I kind of realized this the other day. I was like, in every interaction, you're either going to walk away, like you're going to leave someone and they're either going to feel a little bit small, like they're going to feel either smaller or bigger based on how that interaction went, how you treated them. And I was like, damn, I think I make people feel small a lot. And you know, I'm, I think I'm doing it in service of like, we're doing dumb shit. We need to do the right thing. But I'm definitely not like, I've seen people who are really good at still getting the thing done without ever making people feel small. And I want to learn that Jedi magic.
Who's an example? Who's an example of someone who does that?
Um, our buddy Suli, I think, is pretty good at that. I don't know what he's like inside of a company, but like, I've seen him kind of like as an advisor type of guy. And, um, I know what he's thinking in the moment. I'm like, oh man, he's got to be looking at this being like, what in the actual fuck is going on here. But that's not what comes out of his mouth. And he will finesse his way there. And I don't think it's because he's a kinder, nicer person. I think it's because the last thing you said, which was, I think he's realized that's not how you get to your desired outcome.
That's not how you get desired outcome. Not at all.
Exactly. So I think that that's definitely an area to improve. In fact, the one time I did make somebody cry is when I was firing somebody. And I realized in that moment, I was like, oh, he's not crying because he's sad that he's getting fired. Obviously there's that part of it, but He's very surprised, and that's on me. Like, um, I was too scared to be clear upfront that, hey, this isn't going the way we need it to go, and it's got to go differently, and here's what the level is, and this is not— like, this currently not at the level. And so I, I avoided that tough conversation there, and now I'm having a tougher conversation because I avoided that one.
How many people have you fired?
I don't know, like 20. Really?
Yeah, that's, that's a lot, right?
I don't know. I've been going for 16 years. Like, yeah, one a year. It's not been— not that much.
I've not fired that many people. I'm such a punk. So there's a story about Dave Portnoy. There's a story about Dave Portnoy and like Dave Portnoy is like, I don't fire people. Like, it's impossible to get fired by me. I'll just pay you and you just are lazy and a bum and I'll just make fun of you and it's good content. I kind of feel the same way. I suck at firing. I, I have a good script. I basically say like right off the bat, I go, all right, this conversation is going to stink, but I'm firing you today and we could talk about why if you want. Now, I don't even say why. I'm just like, this isn't working out because it doesn't benefit me to say why. It only hurts you because they can sue you. But I'm horrible at firing people. Like, I like— I'm such a punk. I like— I hate having that conversation that I avoid it.
Yeah, but it's just like anything else. Like, you just stretch the pain out. Longer versus— Oh, I know the key is, and I say this because everybody who— every manager, everybody who becomes a manager of any people, like, don't worry, you suck. Everybody sucks as a manager at the beginning. Nobody is naturally just like an amazing manager right off the bat. It is a learned skill. And the key to firing, though, if you learn nothing else about firing, is in the first 10 seconds, you need to say the news. Just do not beat around the bush. You know, the reason we're here today is because we're going to let you go. And, um, you know, that has to come out of your mouth in the first 10 seconds. And if you say anything else right away in the first 10 seconds, just realize you're being a complete asshole. Because, uh, when it does come and they realize, wait, what were you just saying all that stuff about? Why didn't— what? And you're going to blindside them in a much worse way. It's key. Absolutely key. Um, I have a couple other areas I want to ask you about. One is, I think, probably the key to making shit work, keeping things simple and focused and knowing what to say yes to and what to say no to. Do you have anything that you actually do to make that, to like do that better now?
I think that I'm so good at focus and I'm bad at it. I've missed a lot of interesting opportunities, but by default I say no to everything and it's actually cost me a bunch. Um, like for example, um, at The Hustle, we thought about launching multiple newsletters and I was like, nope, we're just gonna do this one thing and we're gonna do it well because Scott Belsky told me to focus and to only do this one thing. So I'm literally gonna say no to everything. And our competitor did and they scaled their revenue significantly faster. So I said no to too much actually. But, um, I might, my default was just, I'm gonna say no to everything.
That's interesting. I'm the opposite. I'm a shiny object, you know, syndrome kind of guy.
And so, by the way, The Hustle didn't, we didn't even have an Instagram handle until like 4 years in. Like I like, I was like, no, we're not even gonna do social media. We're doing nothing. It was like, we're doing nothing. We're just gonna do this one stupid newsletter all the time.
Like, can we have lunch?
No, dude. One of my biggest, one of my, speaking of, by the way, I used to be really cheap. One of, deep in my soul, the thing that hurts me most is one time I bought all the supplies from Costco for a conference and I ended up returning $2,000 worth of like canned soda and stuff. And like the lady at the front desk was like, you're pathetic. Because I was like, what? And she's like, you know, we throw all this stuff away. Is this just some from some party that you threw? And it was like, my answer was even worse, which was like, No, it's for a business conference. I made a lot of money and like, and like, it hurts my soul that I was so cheap that I returned open cans of soda to Costco for $2,000. It like crushes me. Like, like the 24, like the 24 case was like, uh, partially used things. Yeah. And I, and like, I was like, I can't believe that was such a punk move. I can't believe I did that. Uh, that's one of my biggest regrets. That's next to this one time I tipped this taxi driver and he said, oh no, you don't need to do this. And I said, oh no, you need it instead of you earned it. Like those two things are like the two things that like crush my soul. I'm like, I can't believe I said that. Um, but what, what, what, what, what were you saying? You were talking about, um, focus. What were you talking about? Focus. Fucking A. Focus.
As we get back on track. I create— I now have a thing which is I create a doc for every business every year that's called the Big Bet Stock, which is basically like, we are going to make some bets this year. We're going to do some things, but let's be super conscious about what we're saying yes to and what we're saying no to. So my big bet stock, and I'll literally write it like this, I'll say something like, we bet number one, Um, we really suck at inventory management. Today, forecasting is just me looking at the spreadsheet and making up numbers based on what I hope happens. Uh, I know there's probably a smarter way to do this. Other people certainly have solved this problem. Um, I need to figure out how to hire people who know how to do this. So the bet is I'm gonna hire 2 people and that's gonna lower our waste from X to Y. And I write a sentence like that, and then that's my bet. I'm gonna make this hire. For this outcome because of this problem. And I write bet number 2.
You keep talking about businesses though. Are you, what, how many are you, what, how many?
Well, like I would do this even for the podcast, right? Like big bets, right? Hiring Ari. Okay. Why, why, why'd you do this? Why did you make this bet? Or we just launched the Clips channel. Okay. Why am I going through this effort where I'm sitting here clipping my favorite parts of podcasts? Because I hope that somebody out there wants to just listen to the best parts on YouTube when they come up, because that's how I like to listen to things. And so I'll write it out and I'm like, if I'm going to invest my effort, my time, my money into something, then I write it out. Or like, you know, maybe it's for Shepherd. For Shepherd, hey, here's the bets that we're going to make. And so I'll do this exercise because it's so useful. So I write the big bets and it's like, here's the 3 to 4 big bets that we're going to make, the things that we're going to bet on, that we're going to do, that we're going to invest in, and we're going to try to do really, really well. And then I'll make the no list right before that. And the no list, I write, there are a bunch of other things that we could talk ourselves into doing that are easily justifiable. However, we're going to say no to these things this year because we want to do that. We actually want the things above to happen. And then I'll make the no list. Here's the things we're not going to do this year that we totally could have talked ourselves into. So for me, that was a very useful exercise. And then when I bring people on, everybody, I sit down with them with this big bets list. I'm like, here's what we're doing. And then if they're the one responsible for it, I treat it like a commercial because I'm like, I need to make this memorable. I need this person to wake up and remember because it's not just for me to be focused. I need my whole team to be focused. How do I do that? I basically shrink down one of these bets into almost like a slogan or a jingle for their role. It's like, your mission is this. Remember that. And I'm going to say that to you probably 100 times in the next 3 months. And, um, we're just gonna keep checking in on that. And that's how I'm gonna bonus you is if you did that or not. And that's how I'm gonna assess your performance is if you did that or not. And if I ever, if, if I ever, what's the priority? It's that, that's the priority. And I took this cuz like Peter Thiel said that he did this at PayPal. He's like, yeah, I don't know, whatever. Management's not my favorite thing. So here's my shortcut to management. Everybody at any time has one priority. And if you ever try to talk to me about not that priority, I will just simply leave the room. And I thought that was just a visual of that was so funny to me.
What a fucking weirdo that I was like, Peter, can you, can you be normal for what? Like, yeah, if someone just walked up, walked, stood up and walked away when I was telling, telling them about stuff, I'm like, dude, can you just be normal for 30 seconds?
Elon Musk had an idea about a new program that we could do and he just like drifts away like a hot air balloon.
What a weirdo, man. Uh, but I love it. There's stories of, I dig it. There's stories, there's stories of Elon doing that too, where like in an interview, like within 30 seconds he would be be like, oh, I'm not interested in this person. And so he would just hang up. Yeah, he emailed out at Tesla, see the laptop closing.
He was like, um, if you're in a meeting and in the first few minutes of the meeting you realize that this is not useful to you or to anybody, please stand up and leave. Uh, like, your time is valuable, these meetings are a drain, and, uh, vote with your feet. Just get up and go. That is a completely acceptable behavior here at Tesla.
Do you ever send emails with the one of those emails where the subject is the body of the email?
Yeah, of course. It's just like a pager, basically. You're treating it like a pager.
I had one of the only jobs I ever had. My boss sent me an email like that and I was like, is this how we send emails? And then I, I sent them an email. I go, what's the status on this, this thing? And it was in the subject. And the reply was, don't ever send me an email like this again. Uh, it was a very— I love those emails.
I actually, I think there are those levels. So basically what I realized is that rich people and busy people treat email like texting. So their email is like, uh, lowercase on their phone, one line, totally fine. That's like their normal way of, of emailing. And then mega rich people treat email like it's letters. They'll have somebody actually screen them, print them out, and then they'll kind of like review them at their desk in paper. This is like the old school way of doing things.
Who do you know who does that? I think Mark Laurie does that.
If I had to guess, I feel like he did tell us that, uh, Trump does that.
He told us he didn't even own a computer.
He didn't own a computer. Yeah. But like, I've met a couple of people. One of my old bosses used to do that. Like he used to print out his important— his assistant would print out his important emails and just put them on his desk so that he could like see them and he would just leave a sticky note on them and she would go figure out what to do. Um, I, you know, I worked for a guy who had 4 women at the office with giant TV screens just managing his inbound emails. And he would just stand and walk around. They would be like, oh, this person said this. They pull it up on the screen. He would just orally dictate his reply and then he would walk away and then they would just keep managing it. It was insane.
Most of the day I feel like I'm responding to stupid ass messages like on Slack, Twitter, texts, email. I cannot stand it, man. It is so hard. So I actually think printing out that thing and replying, it could be kind of cool actually. Yeah.
Or creating— you need some kind of firewall. Like for me, it's like my assistant is the firewall. She triages all the emails and then I only check my email for 30 minutes a day. Like, you know, because it's already taken care of. And if there's something that needed a faster reply, she'll tell me, she'll text me and then that's it. Um, uh, there was one other thing that I was going to share, which is, um, there's a big difference. I think that's worth saying, which is pre-product market fit and post. So pre-product market fit, what you do versus post is very different. I think most of this call has been about post, but actually like most of my life has been about before you have product market fit. Before you have product market fit, you don't do any of these things. You literally just figure out what your product is and you go try to sell it and get customers and then you basically get rejected and you know, you handle that and you iterate until you figure out what the product should be and who the customer should be. And you've proven how to get product and customers to go up, you know, to connect and get more customers. Like, I think that's worth saying too. And then after you have figured that out, after you have figured out that this product actually has a market and you know how to communicate it to customers, you know how to get customers, then you hire people to like do more of that. And I would say like, I saw you firsthand with Hampton doing this where like there was a couple months where you showed me your calendar and it looked like a Jenga tower. It was 20-minute calls stacked on top of each other, sometimes overlapping. And I was like, what is this? Like, where do you— and you're like, yeah, I'm trying to go get the members for Hampton. I'm trying to figure out what Hampton is. And you sent me like a, like a kind of a script or like a landing page. You were writing it yourself, trying to explain what the benefits are and who it's for. And you considered like, you know, should I take this angle or this angle or this angle? I like would help you, you know, like reply on the Google Doc.
Well, it's kind of like, it's kind of like being a comedian, you know what I'm saying? Like when you, when Hasan Minhaj finally does his Netflix show, he's done 200 before that and you see which angle hits, right? And it's the same thing. It's like, I got to see which, which angle is hitting. Someone tweeted out or something. They're like, product market, product market fit is like sex. If you have to ask, you're not having it or something like that. And I was like, that's so stupid. I've definitely asked in both of those situations if I have it or not. I was like, that's one of those lines. That's one of those lines that sounds good, but, uh, that ain't true. I was uncertain multiple times about both of them things.
Is it happening?
Is this it? Is this happening? Are we doing it?
And on that note, that's the pod.
I feel like I could rule the world.
I know I could be what I want to.
I put my all in it like no days off. On the road, let's travel, never looking back.