Talking to Tim Ferriss about how to live a dope life

I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off.

Sean, you want to kick things off?

Uh, yeah.

Where to start?

It's so funny. I did a pod with Tim I don't know, last year or something like that. And I hyper-prepared for it because I was like, oh my God, it's Tim Ferriss. This is the guy. This is the reason I did a podcast in the first place. I wanted to be a Tim Ferriss. That was a, that was a, that was part of the North Star. This time I had the exact opposite opinion. I was like, I don't have any agenda coming into this. Meaning like, I just wanna know what's up. I wanna know what's new, what's exciting. What are you nerding out about? I just kind of wanna hear what's going on. Like, what is Tim Ferriss up to nowadays? And I have your, game here. And actually, you told me about this even when we were doing that last podcast. You said, I just spent a few days with one of the world's best game designers. I didn't realize that was our mutual friend Elon. And, uh, yeah, he's the man. He came on this podcast here recently. He's the man. So you went and did it. You went and made a game with him. Maybe just, I don't know, let's start there. Why'd you, why'd you make a game?

By the way, you, in 2014, you had a guy working with you named Charlie Hoan that I've talked to a little bit. Charlie's really cool. Yeah, Charlie's great. And I remember he wrote a blog post on play.

Yeah.

Do you remember that?

I do.

I absolutely do.

Yeah.

And the whole point of the blog post, I was like, these guys are idiots. They don't know how to have fun. You can't just go out and play. And then as I've gotten older and I take things way more serious, I, it's very strange that I have empathy for that now. And I feel that where I'm like, Oh my God, like I need to go out and have fun. It just like, not everything needs to make money or not everything needs to have a purpose or be an ice plunge that helps me optimize my morning. And I just need to do stuff just because it's fun. That's what I used to do.

Oh, totally. And it's, I mean, all of, I shouldn't say all, but a lot of the sort of socially reinforced drivers and behaviors and so on are around this. They're orbiting around this emotional valence of taking things seriously, and there's a place for that. There are a lot of places for that. But what I've also realized, if you're serious all the time, you're going to burn out or implode or just wear yourself out before you get the truly serious stuff done, right? So it's like, right now I'm dealing with family medical crises that I don't want to get into, but I'm dealing with that. There's a bunch of hairy shit going on, and obviously the state of the world is pretty exciting, to put it one way. And having some type of recreation, play for play's sake, with social interaction, right? It doesn't have to be a game. It doesn't have to be a card game or a tabletop game. Could be playing tennis, could be anything, watching UFC with your friends. Doesn't, it doesn't really matter, right? I think as a psychological release valve and as a way to recharge your batteries so that you can get back into the fray, fully charged and resilient is super, super, super important. So for all those reasons, and frankly, it's like, look, I want to have a family, I want to do all that, it's my top priority. And there's certain things you want to practice before you need to have them, right? And I feel like getting back into exploring some of the things that made me so happy gave me so much joy as a kid makes some sense. And the older I get, the more I realize how reliable a lot of that stuff is, right? I wanted to be a comic book penciler forever, and just getting into digital painting on an iPad and taking— walking through some tutorials on YouTube with Procreate, it's like, oh wow, how did I forget about this? This is just so nourishing for me.

Is this going to be like a good moneymaker for you? Like, is this a good business decision in addition to a good kind of life, fun, creative quest that you went on, a creative side quest?

I think it could be, if it's successful, a nice little annuity that rolls in that is reasonably passive if it hits escape velocity. Uh, if I were just trying to make money, this is not the way to do it. Like a low-priced physical product that is shipped from overseas, particularly with tariffs and everything. Like, this is not— if you're trying to make make your riches. I would put this kind of in the same category as like streaming music on Spotify or writing books.

Do you care about making money? Like, are you motivated for more?

Not really.

When did that— do you remember when that happened where you're like, I have— my cup is full?

Yeah, it was probably when I had my first one or two real startup exits.

Which was what? That's, that's, uh, Shopify? What was the—

where were the first hits? Uh, the first few hits that were meaningful were like Shopify, Uber, both of which were, were, were sizable, right? For me, for me, it's not like, look, I'm not going to be subsidizing a presidential campaign or buying, buying a mega yacht, but I don't, I don't want to do any of those things.

Are you comfortable saying publicly a number where you're like, you know, I don't, I'm not motivated by more because a lot of people will listen to this pod and they're like, when will I ever feel like that? And I'll give you an easy pass if you don't want to say that number.

All right.

Yeah. So when I had heard that, I, I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Relatable. I've been there and I could see that. But it also left me defeated, like, okay, so then what is there? Is there simply no answer? Is that the right answer? And I think what Tim is saying is kind of where I've landed, which is for most people, it's an imagination problem. They haven't spent the time to think about what else they want in life, and therefore they just move the goalposts a little further on the, on the money game or the success game that they are super familiar with. And so it's not even a question of hitting a benchmark. It's simply like you have, you have not put sufficient resources into thinking about the other things that will give you that same sense of purpose, of progress, of achievement, of fulfillment, you know.

But what framework, Shawn, do you use? Because like, I, I mean, I struggle with that where I'm like, well, I don't know what to do. I've been doing this.

Yeah. What's your answer to that, Sean? That— do you have a framework or anything to say about it?

Well, the first was kind of the wake-up call, right? Like, uh, I would say like beginning a career, 20s, it's— I don't even have the ability to get what I want regardless of what I wanted. I didn't have the skill. I was too feeble. I was too passive. I was too dumb. I was too unskilled. I didn't have the, you know, the hustle. I didn't have the marketing chops. I didn't know how to get even what I wanted. The first part of my career was just to actually figure out how to even get what you want. And I started with a very simple want, which is like, oh, I want to be successful. I want to make money. I want to be financially independent. Right? And I looked around and I saw that, okay, most people, most people are, you know, on a bit of a financial treadmill. They're never going to make enough where they can be financially free to have total freedom to choose what they want. And they seem to be dreading going to work. They didn't seem to be enjoying the thing they were doing either now. So they couldn't get out and they didn't like where they were. Uh, then you saw, you know, a few people made a lot of money, but they didn't really like the way that they had to make the money. These are the bankers, the consultants, and the people who were, you know, they were maybe traveling a lot. Maybe it was low creativity type of jobs, but hey, paid, paid really well. And then there was the lucky few who seemed to have both, right? It's like they were making gobs of money doing creative work that they loved, and they forgot what day of the week it was because they were just so excited to get, get up and do their projects. And I just was like, okay, cool. That's kind of the first thing I That's the first thing to want. Now, when I, when I got to that point, then I realized and looked around me, you, and a bunch of our mutual friends, Sam, like, you realize that some people never re— never went back and asked the question, what do I want now? So that maybe that was the right thing to want when I was 20, or is my best idea then. But when I turned 30, that wasn't the best idea anymore of what to want. And we have a bunch of friends, not going to name names, but like, they just keep putting points up on the scoreboard. They've already earned the last dollar they will ever spend in their life. And so now they're trading great hours for useless dollars, which is like such a wake-up call of a bad trade to make. And, you know, at least they have fun doing it and they do feel like a sense of, you know, power and autonomy and creativity making it happen. But it became pretty clear that once you have the power to get whatever it is that you want, right, or you believe in yourself to be able to make it happen, then the priority shifts to wanting the right shit. You know, what do you actually want? And, you know, I looked at myself and I was like, cool, my bank account got fat, but then so did I. So it's a new thing to want. I want to, I want to not be embarrassed at how I look. I want to feel proud of myself for, you know, having self-control and like break some of these terrible habits that are going to cut my life short and, you know, make me sort of, you know, immobile, uh, you know, as the older I get. And so that became a thing to want. And then why did I pick the piano this year? Because I was like, I don't know, what are the, what are the real joys that make me happy? I love playing basketball. I love sport. The other, I think, thing that like people really can get lost in and like get into a flow state and just truly enjoy themselves is music. And like one is either, either I'm going to go to a bunch of concerts, but I got 3 little kids. It's probably not in the cards for me to go on tour and go, go to a bunch of festivals this year. But what if I played music? What if I made a little dad garage band? That seems like fun. And, and I stole a word from Tim on this. He, I think, was talking to Balaji and he said he called him post-economic. And I don't know if Tim, I don't think you had ever used that before. At least I hadn't heard anyone use that before. Did you make that up?

No, I didn't make it up. I heard it from somebody in Silicon Valley.

Oh, we totally did.

So we stole it from you and sort of almost like as a joke, like it's just like a cool, it's like people who instead of being, you know, investors, they're capital allocators or like, you know, the aioli versus mayo. So I was like, oh, post-economic is a great way to say I'm rich.

We had an MFM t-shirt that said post-economic.

So I kind of laughed about it.

Yeah, it picks centric versus fucking crazy.

Yeah. So then I was like, well, what does that actually mean? What the definition of it is, isn't that you have all the money you ever want, it's that you you no longer need to make decisions based on money as the primary, like, motivator, which is how I had made a lot of decisions. So, Sam, to answer your question, I think it's all of that, getting to the point of realizing that the most important question now is what are the right things to want, realizing that the decider of what to want isn't money anymore. And maybe, maybe that was right when I was in my 20s, maybe it was wrong, but at least it no longer needs to be the case. And now pick a new word. Mine is fun. So I want to do the things that I enjoy, the act of doing them, um, not like doing them for some future payoff. Uh, and I told you this, uh, you know, piano is a great example of this because I thought, oh man, it's so cool to be able to play this song. And I realized nobody gives a shit if you could play the piano. Like if anyone could play the piano, they just start, they sort of nod like, oh, you can play the piano. Cool. They've moved on. They don't want to sit there and listen to a 7-minute, you know, Beethoven's, you know, second minuet. Like they don't care about any of that. So you literally can't show it off even if you wanted to. It's only fun. Because it's really fun to play. Um, and it's a great, like, you know, so pick things that are in that category. The other thing, Sam, the other trick is writing it out. So like, I think when you write, you force in a level of honesty in yourself if you do it right. If you write something that doesn't feel true, it stands out to you as soon as you said it, uh, as soon as you put it down on paper. And then you can, you know, sort of edit that. And I find that most people do not edit their thoughts very much, right? They're only the author, they're rarely the editor. And I sort of just take most of the things I think and do as first drafts that need a really great editor to come back in and try to make this good. And so I try to edit it. Like, I have a post on Medium. I don't use Medium anymore, but I wrote what I want out of life, age 28. And I wrote like a stream of consciousness, a ramble. But I write that, like, I kind of wrote that every year. Even in, in the post, I wrote, I want to rewrite this every year so I could see myself evolving and figuring out what I actually want out of life, right? Like, I think being intentional in that way has helped.

Trading great hours for useless dollars.

That's great. That's cool.

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Tim, you said this on the last pod. You go, I've been around, I've met enough wealthy people to know it's like food. You know, you could be starving. You can eat, you can eat till you're full, you can eat till you're stuffed, you can eat till you make yourself sick. You know, it's not— money isn't the answer. And it's sort of obvious, you know, once you say it like that.

Have you, um, because of your job, and I mean, we experienced this, but to a minor, uh, bit, but because of your job, you're able to meet like, you have the best fame, which is you're still famous mainstream, but the famous people, the cool people, the experts like you, uh, they, they love you, which is really neat. Who would you put in like the top 3 of like your best buddies that are from your podcast?

Ooh, good question. Uh, well, I mean, just because it's top of mind, uh, Alan Lee, honestly, we've become super close and that is hard for me as an adult. I've also been very— I've always been very guarded and slow to trust. So even when I was in college, I didn't make a lot of friends. I mean, I was very hesitant. So the fact that we gelled so well and have become really close is just awesome because I, if you had asked me like, you think you're going to make any super close friends, right? If you had a parking lot of 20 spots of your absolute closest friends in the world, is anyone new going to potentially take one of those spots? I'd be like, absolutely no way.

So, uh, Alon was on the pod probably 6 months ago. So if you're listening to this, go back and listen to it. Check it out. He's the man.

He's awesome. So he would be one. I would say there are a lot of friends with whom I've just deepened relationship and the podcast has been a pretext to just hang out, right? And like, in person, we'll have dinner the night before, hang out, do a podcast. But there's all of this social interaction around it. That's true for a lot of my friends. I mean, I will use the podcast just as a way to ensure that too busy friends actually remain friends.

Who's on your list?

You also, one of these you just said about like you do the podcast, but you get dinner the night before, you hang out, maybe you work out together, you do go for a hike, whatever, those types of things. One of the great, I think, hacks, uh, is you had this term lifestyle design, but there's sort of like lifestyle sampling. Because when you go hang out with somebody, you go into their world for a little bit.

Yeah, totally.

Uh, but he does.

Sure. Great for him. But I now know with absolute clarity, it's not an intellectual exercise. Like I felt it. Um, I know it viscerally now that that's not what I want.

Yeah.

Yeah. The, the sampling and window in is incredibly helpful also for Deciding who you actually want to model, also who you might want to imitate, because it's very easy to look at such and such. And I know some amazing, awesome, say, hedge fund managers, but there are also a lot of very, very wealthy, miserable cunts out there. And, you know, like one guy carries divorce papers in like his briefcase around just in case.

And it's like, wait, what?

Yeah, incredible.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's like, okay, you could look at the—

what a douche.

Yeah, I know. But you could look at the scoreboard, right, if you just read the profile on the Midas List or whatever, and you'd be like, oh my God, I want to— I want to get that guy's playbook. I want to imitate it. But there might be side effects to that playbook, right? Like, sure, maybe the guy's a douche out of the box, but it could be also that the behaviors and the habits and the way he or she has built their company and managed their people also directly contributes, like, all of the family strife and multiple divorces and disasters, right? It could be that they're actually— there's a causal link, not just a correlation. So for that reason, I mean, I really do try to spend time getting into the personal with a lot of my guests. And I spend a lot of time with people who have cross-functional ability professionally and personally. So when, when— so people, for instance, like I mentioned Laird and Gabby, like amazing parents, really tight family. And I, I really like their dynamic as a couple and their parenting style. I've seen it. I've, I mean, I've seen a lot of it. Uh, Kelly Starrett and his wife Juliette Starrett, who's like a powerhouse behind the scenes with everything, the way that they have raised their kids, who I've known since they're really small now, and they've turned out like they're in college and like, okay, they've shipped a fully awesome human and they have a very tight relationship with them. That is not the standard, at least in the United States, from what I've seen. And for that reason, it's like, okay, we might as well take whatever their professional accomplishments are. And I mean, I, I, if they had 10, 20 times as much money, it would not change. It would not necessarily increase the amount that I want to emulate them.

Sean and I reference this all the time. We're like, whose life do we admire? Like all facets of it as a whole. My answer was Laird. Did you have an answer, Sean?

Jesse Itzler.

Yeah. Jesse Itzler would also be—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great answer. I hate to say a name because it's like, no, I'm not trying. I don't know the guy that way, you know, and I'm not trying to like— he's my friend. I'm not trying to make him a god. But like, but if I think about blueprints, he has this, you know, he has this approach to like just adventure that I didn't have in my game. So you see it and you're like, oh wow, this guy's really got just more unforgettable days. And so I have this, like, this is cheesy, but I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to debut this. I'm going to take this out of the closet. All right, Sam, this is how I've been living my year. Okay, Sam, you're not a, you're not a real sports guy. You're like a skateboarding and like, just like only lifting weights. Like, but in, in real sports where people play games and there's, you know, like the guys who, who, who are famous that we all admire. Uh, there's these stat— there's these statistical clubs. So like in, uh, in baseball, there's the 30/30 club, which is like you hit 30 home runs and steal 30 bases. Two things that usually don't go together, power and speed. And this year, like, I haven't even cared about baseball for, you know, 10 years, but Shohei Ohtani, I'm like, oh, this Japanese guy hit 50— he hit the 50/50 club, first guy ever. Oh, and he's actually a pitcher too, like Babe Ruth.

I gotta—

what, who is this guy? I, I must know. Who has put this, like, on these things that each individually are great, but it's like ambidextrously great, right? He could do it with both hands type of thing. And so in basketball, there's the 50-40-90 club. It's like, who's truly an elite shooter? You can measure it statistically. And so I created the 20-20-20 club for myself, and it was basically—

hold on, you're going to make fun of me for exercising, but you can have your own 20-20 club that you've written down? Come on. These are of similar levels of nerdiness.

That's pretty good.

That's pretty good. How do you have an unscripted day? What does that look like?

It's off of my normal script, you know? It's like, so you know what I mean? It's like, I have a script. I wake up, I go work out, I do this, I do that. And I like that day that I've architected. Yeah, but I need some serendipity. I need some forced adventure. And, but it's not just going to happen by default. By default, I won't do it. So I have to like block out the day, be like, oh, that thing on the calendar, it's blue. I know what a blue day is. Blue day is I got to do something I totally wasn't going to do. I totally never do.

So what's an example of, so that's every 2 weeks basically, or something like that.

Roughly every 2 weeks.

Yeah. Yeah. Give me, what was your last 3?

Okay. So my last 3. The last one was on Friday. I, I hired a professional basketball trainer to take me through a workout that he puts pro basketball players through. So I woke up and I cleared the calendar. This is why I missed the podcast, by the way. I cleared the calendar. I woke up at 6 AM and I went and trained for 3 hours.

Sam's like, you said you were sick.

Yeah, like I was late, uh, because I was doing this and I lost track of time because I was so like engrossed in it. You know what I mean? Another one, I again cleared the whole calendar and I just read all my favorite fiction books as a kid. So I read two, two Harry Potter books basically in a two-day span to totally just let myself indulge in something that's fun. That's kind of like nostalgic. I would never have the time to go do this, but oh my God, I had, I had such a blast doing it. Another one, I tried to make a song. I've never made a song before. I was like, today I shall try to make a song. And in some ways inspired by Tim, when we were hanging out, you said something like, I was like, so what'd you do today? Like, what's a day in the life? And you had told me you had— I think you had been painting or like archery or something like that, some like totally random fun pursuit. But the way you said it in like classic Tim Ferriss fashion where it's not just like, yeah, I just did this because I liked it. It was like, well, if you think about it sort of systematically here, and it was basically like, I have like a creativity gym. It's like a place I go for an hour or 45 minutes and I get creative reps. And it just helps me be more creative. And I thought, well, that kind of makes— I kind of like that. I like that justification. You know, I'm good with that. And so I started doing a creative gym. So Tim, this year I picked a, you know, a misogi. Jesse Itzler came on here and talked about the concept of misogi, a challenge that sort of defines the year. And I should have done it in something that was practical. I think when I sat down with the pen and paper, I was like, cool, this is definitely going to be something about getting in shape, or it's going to be something about making money. It's just something about growing the podcast. It could be something like that. And then I just decided, and then somehow 30 minutes later, I was like, I'm going to learn to play the piano. And suddenly I'm going to piano lessons.

I think that's going to be so much better for you.

Yeah, yeah, totally. I have just a quick sidebar story that's similar to your piano story where they're like, where's your kid? So I have, as you alluded to, been taking archery super seriously. I mean, it's fun, it's definitely not practical, and I also like trying to figure out a system for training and all of these things, right? So they're not mutually exclusive, and I just love archery, and I've had the the opportunity to train with some amazing folks like Jake Kaminsky, 2-time silver medalist. And I've trained with a number of kind of legendary folks in short stints, right? So I flew to California, I trained with one such person, and he invited me to his house. He's like, come train at my house. All right, so I show up at the house, and every single person shooting on the line is somewhere between I would say 6 and 12, right? Every single one Asian, right? Because a lot of the Asian countries, especially South Korea, just dominate everyone, uh, historically. There are just many, many standard deviations beyond anyone else. It's, it's pretty phenomenal. Uh, South Korea on a million levels is an interesting case study, kind of like Singapore. Anyway, and at one point I'm doing my thing like off to the side because I'm still very remedial. I'm like the short school bus version. And these kids are just slaying. They're all training to compete and stuff. And at one point, the coach pulls me over and he's like, join the circle, join the circle. I'm like, okay. And so he pulls all the kids together and he's giving them this motivational speech, but it's a very, like, tough love East Asian motivational speech. Anyone who's listening who has, like, first generation parents or parents who were born in, like, Korea, Japan, China will know what I'm talking about. And he's giving this sort of tough motivational speech. And then he turns to me and he goes, He goes, this is Tim. He is an old man, very old man, but he is taking this very seriously and training hard. And I was like, oh, I see the case study old guy. And I was like, I'm good with it. I'm totally good with it. And I find that freeing though, right? Because it's like I'm not competing against these kids. These kids are going to grow up to be far better than I am. And so that kind of I need to do this to be the best is something you just can't even justify as a delusion or an obsession. Do you know what I mean? So you have to just figure out how to enjoy it for what you're able to do.

So I still haven't left like the Uncle Rico phase where I'm like, you know, I was pretty fat. I could still— I might be able to make the Olympic team in the bobsled. Like, I still like, you know, like, am I— like, it's— I'm not old. I'm getting to the point now where I'm about phased out of that, where it's like, dude, you're past your prime. Not a chance. But I still am like, I could— I think I could probably do that. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And it makes exercise not fun sometimes because it is like— because you are always so serious. I need to— but in about 2 years it's going to be like well past my prime. It's like you don't have a chance. But I do find it hard. And you did something funny. One of the first times we hung out, I asked you— it's very similar to what Sean just said about how you had a very specific reason about something. I said, you know, that's a cool dog leash. And you're like, oh, this dog leash? You see this dog leash? It's made of horsehair and it's perfect because it doesn't have any allergens. There's like a— you had a very specific reason for like something like relatively small. And I was like, that's exhausting. Have you had to tell yourself sometimes like, I need to be— it's hard. The reason you are where you are is because you are so precise and so exact, which I don't think a lot of people know this. Like, I've worked with you and I've quoted you on, like, in The Hustle before, and I think I messed up in a pasta-free and you got on me and you're like, no, I said it this way. And I was like, you're totally right. And you are— this is why you are so who you are is because you are so precise. And also that can wear you out sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can be exhausting. I mean, I have, I think, a certain unusual endurance for that type of thing. And I mean, I'll read legal documents that 3 or 4 lawyers have combed over and like within 30 seconds I'll spot stuff. It's just I have an eye for that, which is a blessing and a curse, right? It will go— like if I walk into a room and something— I remember this is going to be— this isn't really selling it, but I remember at one point did this renovation in a bathroom., and I walked in and my girlfriend at the time loved how everything turned out. And I walked in and I was like, mirror's off center. And she's like, what are you talking about? Like, how? You can't even tell that. It's up— I was standing like 15 feet away. And I was like, no, it's an eighth of an inch too far to the left. And then she— we measured it and it was an eighth of an inch too far to the left. But it's— so the downside is that kind of stuff can drive you crazy and exhaust you. You also caught me with the dog training. That would have been right in my, like, obsessive period of trying to figure out dog training with my first, first dog as an adult. So yeah, I would have had a reason for everything. And, uh, and what might be unexpected for folks is, like, I actually, as a kid, and certainly with my friends— if I just had a gathering of friends, uh, 5 days ago, like, a couple of my oldest friends— like, I'm a goofy motherfucker, but it doesn't come out that much. And, uh, I subconsciously or consciously don't let it come out a whole lot. And when I've asked, for instance, something I've done with friends in the past is we don't do a whole lot of New Year's resolutions and stuff like that, but occasionally for New Year's resolutions, and also if there's a word to focus on for the year, we'll be like, okay, we get to assign each other those things, right? Like, I'll give you a New Year's resolution, you give me one. You give me a word to focus on, I'll give you one. And two, one of my friends is just like, goofy, that's your word for the next year. He's like, I see that side of you. Nobody really sees that side of you. He's like, for you, for not just other people, but especially for you, you need to do more of that. And so I have really tried to block out time, especially weeks with friends or a long weekend with friends. That's one of the first things I do every year is I block that out. I reserve something, I pay for it, and I'm just like, you guys just have to show up. And it's a sunk cost. It's the right kind of sunk cost, right? Uh, so I do think about this. And yes, the precision and the anal retentiveness and all that can be exhausting.

You know, at least what I like about you is you don't do the Elon Musk thing where he's like, you don't want to be me, it's painful being me, right? He like almost like martyrs it up where he's like You know, yeah, he like looks off into the distance and pauses dramatically and then just sort of, you know, really hams it up about that stuff. Whereas I think a more balanced thing is like, well, it really serves me in this way. And it's not fully true. I also do these other things and I'm working on that. It's like, I don't know, just a much more human way to deal with it.

Um, yeah, yeah. It's a useful tool. I mean, it's like a really sharp knife, but imagine if you had a really sharp knife that was all blade, no handle, right? It's like if you squeeze that too tightly, you're gonna hurt yourself. And I feel like that's true with a lot of superpowers. Like when you find somebody who seems to have a strong power, whether that's nature, nurture, or some combination, the biggest weaknesses or the biggest curses are typically sitting right next to it, or just the other side of the same coin. They're, they're typically very, very closely related.

What do you think was your superpower? Because you, for anyone listening, I assume you're definitely still a big deal for the 20-somethings. But when Sean and I were 20-somethings, you were the guy. You still are the guy. You inspired all of us to do this. And it sounds funny to say it because what you were doing now or then is so common now. But it was, it was so weird that when you wrote, you wrote some of these things that were like, oh, that's so obvious. You taught all of us how to do it. And you sort of coined a lot of terms. You invented a lot of the stuff. What do you think was your superpower to, um, if you had to pick one that allowed you to kind of be, I mean, you're, you, Tim Ferriss is like a noun that we, you're the Tim Ferriss of this. I mean, that allowed you to become that.

I think there are a few things. I mean, one, that comes to mind is, uh, I was born premature, had a lot of health issues as a kid. So when my mom put me into, say, kiddie wrestling, I couldn't thermoregulate. I would overheat. Uh, and that's still true to this day. So I started trying to experiment with different ways to train, different ways to compete. Didn't do that seriously until maybe like 12 or 13, but wrestling has weight cutting, so you sort of have an inbuilt experimentation at a certain point. And then I was like, oh, okay, well, how can I wake up more effectively? I need to figure out how to lose water weight. Okay, the things that you do to help with water loss are called diuretics. What are the risks of diuretics? Okay, let's figure out, is there anything over the counter that I as a high school student can get that acts as a potassium-sparing diuretic? Blah, blah, blah. By the way, guys, don't do that. Terrible for your body. But I, I think that that experimentation became a habit really early on. And then for, for instance, for The 4-Hour Workweek, I mean, I wrote and tossed a lot of that book multiple times. And the only way I was finally able to write it and feel good about it was to sit down and write it as if I was writing an email to two very specific friends. One friend who felt trapped in a job that he didn't like, which was like a finance job, and he was— had golden handcuffs, basically. I mean, at the time, it wasn't a lot of money for a recent grad. It was not bad. And he felt like he was— he knew he was going down a path that he didn't want to travel, but he couldn't extricate himself. And then the other one was a friend who had started his own business and felt the same way. He's like, I've created this thing. I can't just quit like an employee. Now what? Now what do I do? And I sat down and basically wrote the book as if I'd had 2 glasses of wine and was emailing 2 friends, which meant like all the warts, all the worries, all the petty concerns and the weirdness that they would be familiar with. They would know all that about me. I just put it out there. And I think that that contributed another, another piece. I think that contributed a lot, frankly, like the personal being the most universal. If you're writing and you try to sound smart, you're, you're almost I mean, I, I think it can be a huge handicap, like big possibility of dead on arrival is high for something like that. Um, so embracing your weird self I think can go a long way. And then the last piece is I'm— I am naturally very, very, very curious, and I do have that tolerance for monotony and repetition that a lot of folks have trouble with. Whether that's language learning, archery, or just in the early days before Oura, before Whoop, before any of this, like my patience with doing something like trying to find a first-generation continuous glucose monitor, which was in The 4-Hour Body, which came out 2010. So I probably started messing around in 2008, 2009. As far as I know, I may have been the first non-diabetic to use one of those. And then to deal with all the pain and frustration using this basically beeper side holster to like capture data, export the data, and comb through it. It was so manual, but for whatever reason, that kind of stuff doesn't bother me. So I was, I was able to run experiments I think other people would find torturous. And then I'll just add one more thing. And look, I'm guessing to the best of, of my ability, right? It's hard to say exactly why things turned out the way they turned out. The last one is I do think I'm pretty good at identifying trends and also identifying trends that are going to converge in interesting ways. I don't know why that's the case, but I do think that I'm pretty good at it. Being in Silicon Valley, or, uh, well, to my generation, certainly, you're like relatively early, getting there in 2000 and staying through 2017 also allowed me to just have a very, very, very high density of serendipity and seeing technology, even if you're not a venture capitalist or an angel investor, it's like if you live right there in the switch box, it's in the air, right? You just hear conversations, you bump into randos at cocktail parties or whatever. So you, if you're really paying attention and taking notes, you can sometimes figure things out. So I'd say those are a few that come to mind.

Running my company Hampton, it gives me the chance to meet with hundreds of different businesses, and I'm always surprised by how many of them still use spreadsheets emails, and clunky tools that do not talk to each other. It's like watching someone build a house with duct tape. So here's my take. Custom software that actually fits your needs isn't just convenient, it's a competitive advantage to transform the way you do business. And that's why you need to know about a no-code platform called Bubble. With Bubble, you can build powerful web and mobile apps by literally dragging and dropping different elements on a screen. No coding required. By the way, I use Bubble on a ton of different apps, including Hampton. And if you want help building something complex on Bubble, you have to bring in Xerocode. They're the top Bubble agency out there and literally the biggest plugin creator for the platform. They can build anything— custom portals, SaaS products— and they do it about 10 times faster and cheaper than traditional development. Xerocode is also all about AI business automation, transforming manual and slow processes into efficient automated ones. So stop cobbling together different tools and solutions and head to zerocode.com. That's zero code as in the word zero and then code, Q-O-D-E. Again, code is with a Q and tell them that Sam sent you.

When you create content or you blog, you write, you podcast, it seems like you make a, uh, you make a decision and that decision is about what you're interested in, but also kind of who would be interested in this. Is kind of baked into it. So for example, there's things you can do that might get more views on YouTube, but it might be views of people who you're not that interested in attracting, right? Like, um, whereas I've seen that for you, the people that probably you respect and I respect, they respect your work and that you've gotten to this like wonderful outcome there of what I call like sort of like, I don't, I want to call it like luxury content, but it's definitely like upmarket in a way, right? It's not, um, kind of just lowest common denominator content. Is that, were you intentional about that? Or like, I guess, how do you think about that? Because I don't think this is a bit of content nerdery, but like, you know, from one kind of creator to another, like, how do you, how do you balance those trade-offs or think about that, those, those opportunities, those options, those forks in the road of like, uh, I'll give you an example. Uh, we just had Alex Hormozi on the podcast and I think he's doing a great job on YouTube, but there was a season where if you looked at his YouTube, like thumbnail history, his title history, it was like, if you're broke and do this, if you're totally stuck and like, you know, do this. And every single title had, if you're broke, do this. And then he was like surprised that, you know, he was attracting a bunch of people who were broke to, you know, his content. Well, you kind of, that was the magnet you created. Whereas I think other people do it, do it slightly differently. He's made adjustments, by the way. He's, that's not his whole thing, but as just as an example.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, so it has been super, super deliberate on my side not to aim upscale, but never to deliberately dumb things down or pretend to be interested in things that I'm not interested in. I would say also one thing I left out of maybe that prior list of factors is I took, and still take, but especially during the let's just call it kind of 1998, even prior to that, but especially like 1998 to the publication of the first book, I took writing incredibly seriously. Incredibly, incredibly, incredibly seriously. But I don't think that is a skill that is going to go out of style, even with AI. I really feel like, and part of that is the practice of writing makes you a cleaner thinker, a crisper thinker, a more capable thinker, even if you never share what you're writing.

What does taking it seriously look like on a daily basis?

Well, taking it seriously for me looked like, at the time, you know, I was in school and I took the hardest writing classes I could find and took one class by John McPhee, who's won a Pulitzer Prize and is just this legend in nonfiction writing. And that was an ass kicker of a class. And just to make it really concrete, what can happen, I was shocked by this because I didn't expect it, This was as a kid, a college kid? This was in college. Yeah, this is my senior— I guess it was my senior year in college. And the, the class consisted of like 12 students. You had to apply, it was hard to get into. And then there was a 3-hour seminar a week where he would talk about— John McPhee would talk about structure. He's, he's very well known for how he structures different pieces of writing. And then you'd have a writing assignment, and then he would do a one-on-one with you to review your writing assignment, which let's just say it's like a 3 to 10-page piece, and he would always hand-edit those pieces and give them back to you beforehand. And you might have, let's just say, 3 pages of typed-out writing, so, right, printed-out writing, and you'd get it back and his red ink would be— it would seem like it's the same amount of ink as your black ink. And most of it was like, this word makes no sense. You have no idea what this means. This is pea soup, which means just like word salad. He's like, this is redundant. And he could make the piece 50% shorter without losing anything. And as I got trained to be more concise and just have a higher kind of density of, of meaning without the fluff, my grades in all my other classes went up, even though that class took a ton of time, which is wild. Uh, and And then taking it seriously otherwise means that I'm reading books on writing. So anything I can get ahold of, like On Writing by Stephen King. It's my favorite. Which is not even my genre, right? Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott, also not my genre. These are both mostly focused on fiction. Books on screenwriting. I'd read screenwriting to try to understand story arc. By the way, you can apply that to nonfiction. Uh, now you can get all sorts of other books. Draft Number Four by John McPhee, which is based on the class that he taught at Princeton for ages and talks a lot about structure. Uh, I think it's On Writing Well or something like that. It's by William Zinssner. But I just devoured all these books and kept my notes. I still have a three-ring binder with my notes from John McPhee's class from college. I still have all of my notes. And also paying people to review your stuff or asking people to review your stuff. So even before I had published anything, when I would write something, uh, if you have friends who are in law school or went to law school, even if they don't practice law, great proofreaders. Because what are they paid to find? Anything that's ambiguous, anything that's redundant. If they're accustomed to doing contract review, like lawyers or people who are trained to be lawyers, great at proofreading.

Is this Was it only nonfiction stuff that you were referring to?

I was exclusively nonfiction.

So what does that mean? Like advice? I mean, you're only 21. Were you giving advice or was it just like—

One thing I want to ask you about is, you know, this is— sometimes we ask you about stuff like basically 4-Hour Workweek, which is—

I don't even know how many years old at this point, but like almost 20 years old.

Almost 20 years old.

That's crazy. Yeah.

And that's like what you were interested in nerding out about then, right? You were interested in nerding out about like, how do I free myself of how do I dissociate my time and my money? How do I automate things? How do I delegate things? How do I do fear setting so that I can live a rich life that I want to live right now? I'd be really intentional about it. I'm sure some of those things, just things you're still interested in, but some of them you're probably like, cool, that's a mountain I climbed 10 years ago and I'm less interested now. So I'm curious, what, what are, what are the things you're just most interested in right now? Like, what are you nerding out about? What are you obsessed with? What do you find yourself drawn to right now?

Yeah, we can go in all sorts of weird directions. So I'll also say, for people who might just be curious, like, I still use almost everything in The 4-Hour Workweek minus the tech tools, obviously. Like, Go to My PC is not something people are going to default to, but I still use all that stuff. But it's necessary, not sufficient, right? 4-Hour Body, same story. Like, a lot of that stuff is in the news now. Came out in 2010, right? Like exercise micro snacks and glucose transporters on muscle cells. Like, that's in the 4-Hour Body. It's, it's making the news rounds now because there's more scientific, uh, literature to support it. But I still use all that stuff, like the kettlebell swing, slow carb diet, myotatic crunches, and all that stuff. I still use it all. Uh, so as I've progressed, I think I've identified more and more for me, and maybe for other people, missing pieces, right? And the game, right? Coyote is a good example of that, right? It's like, okay, yeah, sure. You can be the, the, this, the most incredible productivity machine of all time and still be miserable and make your friends and family miserable, right? It's actually more the rule than the exception. I mean, it's like, there are a lot of people who fit that bill. And, uh, a lot of my exploration these days, I would say since 2015, when I started Saisei Foundation for funding science related to mental health therapeutics primarily, and a huge chunk of that was psychedelic-assisted therapies, starting with like the earliest dedicated centers— Imperial College London, Johns Hopkins, etc. But it's, it's, it's not just that. It's brain stimulation of different types. It's some longevity research, for instance, related to rapamycin and canines, all sorts of stuff. And I'd say these days I am spending a lot of time on the— a lot of it is science. And specifically what I have as a working hypothesis, not the only person, but I think I'm looking cross-disciplinary at a number of different areas and they seem to resonate with the same possible commonality, which I'll say, and that's looking at maladaptive or chronic inflammation as a shared underlying driver of a lot of problems that are solved with different tools. So for instance, the psychedelics are now topic du jour, heavily destigmatized. There's a lot of experimentation on state and national levels being done, some super fascinating stuff happening on the scientific front. And some people say, well, it's because of the content. Other people are like, nope, it's because it hits the serotonin type 2A receptors for certain types of psychedelics, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, there are a lot of incentives involved. Like, some people want to strip it out because it makes for an easier business model if people aren't hallucinating. But it turns out that a lot of these compounds have profound very, very strong and in some cases durable anti-inflammatory effects. Okay, so let's put that aside for now. But I do think some of the anti-inflammatory effects of psychedelics could account for a lot of what we see that is now often explained by other means. For instance, if you give people with depression just straight-up anti-inflammatories— and, and you can find this on PubMed pretty easily, uh, frequently you will see an antidepressant effect or reported improvements. So what's going on there, right? If you look at long COVID, you look at Lyme disease, if you look at Alzheimer's, if you look at certain neurodegenerative diseases— so Alzheimer's often referred to as type 3 diabetes, but, uh, there are elevated levels of certain inflammatory cytokines— it— the list goes on and on and on. So I'm, I've been doing a real deep dive on different means of safe anti-inflammatory approaches to address chronic conditions, right? So that could be, for instance, Sam, you already mentioned it, but something like cold plunges. I do think there is a place for that. I am looking really closely. There's a lot of bullshit floating around about this, but I'm going to interview who I consider to be the most credible scientist. In this domain shortly, but vagus nerve stimulators— there's a lot of charlatan action in this particular subject. There's a lot of questionable devices being sold, but I do think there's something very, very interesting with vagus nerve stimulation, which is actually two basic, basically transatlantic cables running down either side of your neck with like 100,000 fibers on each side. And some of the effects that you can see with respect to autoimmune disorders. By the way, some psychedelics seem to help with that, so what the hell's going on, right? Uh, also inflammatory conditions of different types, depression, anxiety, etc., etc., etc., etc. So when you look at, say, the effects of psychedelics on inflamed microglial cells in the brain, which they do a bunch of things, but they're kind of like the cleanup crew in the brain. Well, what happens if they're not functioning properly? Hmm, interesting. You know, I have a bunch of neurodegenerative disease in my family, and the more you look at this, the more it seems— and inflammation, I'll shut up in a second— it's kind of like, it's kind of like saying, oh, do you do business? Well, you're like, what kind of business? There are a million types of business. Same thing with inflammation. There are so many different markers, so many different inputs and outputs. That's currently what I'm going going full retard on. Like, I've just been going into all the science, calling scientists, emailing scientists, reading books, going through all the dense stuff. The other piece that I've— that may be something people are immediately interested in, and again, I think some of the pathways are the same, is fasting. Yet again, I mean, I've paid a lot of attention to fasting. Wrote about it in Tools of Titans and kind of gave some of my protocols that I tend to follow. For many, many years, I was doing a 3-day water fast every quarter and a week-long fast every year, and then I lapsed and I stopped doing that. But, uh, intermittent fasting is, I think, uh, a more easily complied with experiment that people can run. So looking at 16:8 fasting, and there's, there's a lot of good science out out there about this, related to this. And the person who popularized it is really Martin Birkin, who's a Swedish bodybuilder. He has a, he has a pretty abrasive personality, but he's quite smart.

And I love that guy's blog.

Yeah. And starting back in the day, Lean Gains, he had one of the largest cohorts of people who were experimenting along with him on these protocols, combining weight training with 16:8 fasting. 16:8 fasting just means 16 hours of fasting, 8 hours as a feeding window. So that could be like noon to 8 or 2 to 10. And so credit where credit's due, he, he, he had for a long time, maybe still, one of the most interesting cohorts and data sets of real-world results with this. And, uh, for instance, I mean, I have— I've done all sorts of extended fasting, 3 days, 7 days, 10 days. I don't recommend people just hop into that without proper medical supervision because you can get yourself into some trouble if you're doing that degree of, of pure fasting. But with the 16:8, as I mentioned, my family's got a bunch of health stuff going on at the moment, and there's a lot of metabolic dysfunction in my family, just writ large, across the board. And a lot of it seems genetically driven, right? So I can try almost any dietary intervention, I can try almost any exercise intervention, really doesn't seem to move the needle much. And I I get comprehensive, like the most comprehensive draws and urinalysis and everything you can imagine, probably every 3 months. And after doing not very long, 4 to 8 weeks of intermittent fasting, uh, my results on an oral glucose tolerance test, just to look at insulin sensitivity and so on, uh, remarkable. Like the turnaround was just absolutely incredible. And if you do it right, then let's just say you follow something like what Martin does and you're, you're combining weight training properly. You can gain muscle mass and not lose muscle mass.

Let me ask Sean real quick. Have you— do you know who he's talking about with this guy Martin?

No, I've never heard of this person.

Oh my gosh. This is like, if you're listening to this and you're below the age of 30, you guys should go watch, learn about this person. So this was like right when Tim was in, like coming up, Martin, was a blogger. This was sort of like around like the pickup artist days with The Game and things like this. And he was a guy who taught you how to get ripped and look good. But it was sort of like he was everyone's father and he had this really famous— and it was called Lean Gains, lean-gains.com. By the way, Tim, the website's not even around, but he had a cult following and it was mostly centered around this one attitude. He had a very— he had a strong attitude and he had this famous blog post called Fuck Around Titus.

Yeah, Fuck Around Titus.

Yeah.

And it was this— his whole philosophy on life was most people have Fuck Around Titus, which is you just go in the gym and you're going to lift a little however you feel. You're going to do this. Maybe you'll eat a little food, you'll get a little protein, but like, you know, we're just going to do everything average. And his whole thing was, nope, that's Fuck Around Titus. And that's how you live a life of mediocrity. And if you want to get after it in the gym, you got to get rid of Fuck Around Titus.

This guy's copy on his stuff is great. His Instagram bio, the high priest of intermittent fasting. And then on his website, his book, I think, is The Lean Gains Method: The Art of Getting Ripped. Research, practice, and perfected. And then he says, I'm Martin Berkhan, the thinking man's musclehead. Not my words, but hey, it's true.

Yeah, he's not going to die of lack of confidence.

If anyone is reading this or listening to this and you want inspiration on like how to be a great creator, Go back. It's been a long enough time that most people will have no idea who this guy is. Just steal a lot of his stuff. I mean, he was, he was really good.

He was ahead of his time. He was also a massively prolific and thoughtful contributor on some of the very, very early message boards alongside Lyle McDonald and other folks. And because this is around the same time that I was getting online, you know, in college and then just post-college. So. I was a lurker on a lot of these message boards, and he was very, very, very productive and always tried to cite research when possible, to his credit, and also got very strong, right? I mean, he also demonstrated some real strength. So the point being, intermittent fasting for a lot of people, I think, is not just something that will be easier to adhere to. The first week is going to suck. I'm just going to tell you, for most people, You're going to be grumpy, you're going to be pissy. You don't send too many sensitive emails because you're definitely going to regret it. And then after a week or so, your body adapts and you really start feeling very, very sharp. At least that's true for me. And it affected me in a way that the 3 days once a quarter or 1 week once a year, which I think has some benefit with respect to possible purging of precancerous cells and things like that, which is not pure speculation, there's something to it. But the purposes in, in some senses are different, and I would say very much complementary. So the intermittent fasting, uh, Rhonda Patrick has had a number of scientists on her show, Found My Fitness, related to this that I think are worth checking out. It's easy to test. Along with that, I've been geeking out on exogenous ketones yet again, so supplemental ketones, to make the transition periods a little easier. So, so sometimes I'll just not eat for a day and then eat the next day. Or in the first week of that transition to boost cognitive performance, especially looking at supplemental ketones, there's one that's pretty easy to find called— I think it's just ketone, K-E-T-O-N-E, that you can add into your coffee in the morning and treat it as creamer. If you've never had this stuff before, I would recommend most people are fine. I would say stay close to a bathroom. You may have a rapid onset of possible disaster pants and you'll want to be close to a bathroom. So don't have it for the first time as you're driving to the airport for an international flight. Don't do that.

Hey, have you ever heard this idea? There's like a funny, like, phrase where it's like whatever the Silicon Valley nerds are doing on their weekends, that's going to be mainstream in 5 years.

100%.

You're who they were talking about. Like, you know, like many of the things that you were writing about in 4-Hour Workweek is now common. And you were one of the guys. And you also said one of your skill sets was spotting trends. What do you think are the things now? What are the early things now that in 5 years are going to be quite common?

That's a, that's a great phrase too, electricity over pills.

Like, that's—

yeah.

And I think I'm borrowing because I think, I think one of the many things I've been reading, one is from a scientist named Kevin Tracey, and I think he said maybe it was microchips over medications. So I want to give credit where credit's due, but I have been looking at this very, very closely because psychedelics are not for everyone. Let's be very clear. I mean, that is nuclear power within the psychiatric and psychological realm. And people— there are people who should not take psychedelics. There are risks, very real risks. And it's, it's like 17th dimension neurosurgery. There's a lot going on. There's a lot to be learned. And there are certain conditions that typically at this point are exclusionary criteria. So if you have these conditions, you cannot be part of a clinical trial taking psychedelics. Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc., etc., etc., right? Borderline personality disorder. There's a pretty long list. And it looks like these conditions might be treatable through different types of brain stimulation. And the safety profile is very, very, very good. Also, separately. And it's— and this comes back to the anti-inflammation and all of these things tying together. It's not just anti-inflammation, to be clear, but metabolic psychiatry, another thing that is, uh, very interrelated. Chris Palmer of Harvard is someone to look up on this front. Basically ketogenic diet. So ketogenic diet— at that, people may know the Atkins diet, people may have heard of the ketogenic diet. It was used very effectively, I want to say, in the early 1900s epileptic children for whom it was devised in, in this particular way with heavy cream. And similarly, when people would be having like a schizophrenic or psychotic break, sometimes hundreds of years ago, they would just be put in a room and fasted. And then lo and behold, after a few days, quote unquote, the demons would go away. Okay, well, what's actually happening there, right? So metabolic psychiatry, along with brain stimulation, I think can address a lot of segments of the population that will not be candidates for something like psychedelic-assisted therapy. And also, well, I could go on and on and on, but those are a few examples.

You have electric— electric over pills, metabolic psychiatry, anything else?

Have you seen that, Sean? Do you know about this?

Yeah, we've talked about running clubs. One I just was reading about recently was book clubs. Book clubs are apparently like just on a tear right now, and they're doing kind of like a twist on the book club, which is basically like they'll do silent reading. Everybody gets together, you don't talk, you're just reading together in the presence of each other. Or it'll be like, yeah, yeah, wine and read, or beers and read, right? Like just kind of like books as an excuse to go hang out in person together doing this.

Have you guys seen that, um, young kids kids, like the 20 and 19-year-old kids, are using the same cameras that you and I, we all used when we were 17. So you remember when you're like 17 and you use like a Canon digital camera and you make like a Facebook photo album on, uh, whatever? That's what kids are doing now. Like, yeah, like they don't want to use their phone, they want to use—

oh, like develop film, 30 pictures type of thing?

Well, they'll— yeah, no, they'll use like, remember the Canons? It has a much simpler LCD screen, and there's like, when you go out with your friends and you post like Friday, October 14th, 2014. That's like the title on Facebook of like your photo album. That's what kids are doing now. And now, and I think that's just the very, very, very tip of the iceberg of this feeling of less connection or less, uh, digital.

Yeah. And isolation, loneliness, all this stuff. I mean, like, the younger generations aren't stupid, right? And sometimes there are these sort of commentaries from The older wizened folk are like, oh, those kids don't know what they're doing to themselves. I'm like, oh, I think they have a pretty fucking good idea, probably more so than you do. And other examples would be huge game nights in, say, New York City and other cities, like huge, hundreds of people, right? Started with 2 or 3 people, and now it's at hundreds of people playing games simultaneously. So I find that an interesting thread to pull on. Do I know how to bet on that? No, I'm not in a rush.

Tim, you're— I feel this way oftentimes when I get done talking with you where I'm like, you are cooler than I remember. Basically just means like, like we don't know each other that well, but like I read about you and I listen to your podcast and then I actually hang out with you every once in a while and I'm like, that's why he is who he is.

Uh, you know, like, doesn't it feel like you just had a podcast guest from the future come in? Because he's, he's saying words. He's like, oh yeah, accelerated TMS. I don't even know what TMS is, let alone accelerated TMS. I'm writing down words like, I know the, I know enough to know that these are going to be a big deal in 5 years. I should probably start going, paying attention because he's done that 4 times already over the last 20 years. I should just, I should just pay attention to this, this alien from the future who just came in and started telling me things.

You know what it's sort of like? Have you guys ever met? So you watch professional athletes on TV and then you meet them in in real life. And like, I remember like meeting one in real life and he just like jumped to do his warmup and his jump in the air was like, I was like, oh my God. Like, that's kind of how I feel like when I hang out with Tim, where you're like, oh yeah, that's why he's a pro.

Thanks, guys. It's, you know, you got to sacrifice some hair along the way.

That's— Oh, you look great. Forget that.

Thanks.

Thanks. Thanks very much.

All right.

That's it. That's the pod. Thank you, Tim.

I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could Be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off on the road. Let's travel, never looking back.

All right, my friends, I have a new podcast for you guys to check out. It's called Content is Profit and it's hosted by Luis and Fonzie Cameo. After years of building content teams and frameworks for companies like Red Bull and Orangetheory Fitness, Luis and Fonzie are on a mission to bridge the gap between content and revenue. In each episode, you're going to hear from top entrepreneurs and creators, and you're going to hear them share their secrets and strategies to turn their content into profit. So you can check out Content is Profit wherever you get your podcasts.