5 Big Ideas for a Business with Greg Isenberg

Why does everyone hate on getting rich quick? Get rich quick schemes are the best. I want to get rich quick. I don't want to get rich slow.

It's actually colder here than the Arctic Circle.

Why do you live there?

Well, I mostly live in Miami. IRS, if you're listening to this, um, but I'm sometimes in a mountain town in the middle of nowhere. Uh, Sam, I saw you posted today that you've got about 20 acres in Texas, but I'm staring out at 95 acres of Arctic winter, winter land right now.

Is that cool or no?

I mean, I love, I love it out here. I'm from, I'm from here. So for me, it's It's, uh, it's slow living. It's nice. Um, yeah, I love it.

Is that why you look like a pilot right now in the cockpit or what's going on here?

I mean, Sahil makes— Sahil Bloom, my co-host on my, on, on the Where It Happens pod, we, we do it together and he always makes fun of this, but I'm a, I'm a gamer, so I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid to admit it.

Be who you are, man. Be who you are. Greg, so you're here because I don't even know why you were talking.

We weren't even—

I don't even know what we were saying. We were talking about the Will Smith thing. You had some hot takes. Sam had some hot takes. How can we start with anything else but the bitch slap of the century? Will Smith bitch slaps Chris Rock for making fun of his wife. We— I think we have a different opinion on each one of these things. Sam, give me your first. Where were you when it happened? How did you hear about it? What was your first take?

I was laying in bed and I hear Sarah goes, oh my gosh, you've got to come down and watch this. This is crazy. And I saw it. And here's the thing.

Are you the type, by the way, do you just go or do you wait? You ask, what is it?

No, I go right away.

I can just go. All right. That's like good guy right there.

So here's the thing. Listen, I tweeted about this right away and people were like, well, what would you do? The truth is maybe the same thing. I maybe would do the same thing, but that's wrong. And if I would have ran up there and bitch slapped Chris Rock, I would have been tackled and taken away. And he should too. That's what should have happened. I wanted to see him tackled and taken away, or at least not allowed to be on stage for 5 minutes to accept an award. That is ridiculous to me. I cannot believe that happened.

Greg, give me yours. Where were you? What was your initial reaction?

So my girlfriend texts me and she's like, you're not going to believe what just happened. Will Smith just slapped Chris Rock. And then she's like, wait, I don't know if it was a slap. Maybe it was a punch. And so there was this confusion. There was this like 5-minute confusion where people didn't know what it was. So first place I go to is on Twitter. I'm on Twitter and I looked at the video and I was like, I couldn't believe it was happening, right? It was like You remember when Janet Jackson with the whole Super Bowl thing? Yeah. Like, I feel like I remember what happened where I was with 9/11. I remember what happens when the Janet Jackson boob incident of the Super Bowl.

It's like O.J. and then O.J.

Smith. Yeah. Now Will Smith. So I wasn't happy with the videos that were coming out, but I found the Japanese and Australian videos. Did you guys see those?

For sure. Uncensored, uncut versions.

Yeah. Yeah. And that one where you got a better view of the punch, you know, I needed a better view.

It was a slap, though. I don't know how good your view was. It was a slap.

It was. Yeah. Okay. It was a slap. But what bugged me about the whole thing, and I'm glad you invited me to talk about Will Smith because, you know, that's why I'm here. Is I think that, okay, obviously it was a douchey thing of Will Smith to do, but I was unimpressed with how Chris Rock wasn't able to make a joke of the whole thing. And he could have made comedic history and he didn't. And I expected more from him.

Wow. Disappointed with Chris Rock. That is not the take I thought was going to come. That's why we bring Greg on for the— when everybody zigs, you zag with the new take.

Disappointed But dude, Chris Rock, crazy impressive. He took it, man. He took it. He didn't tear up. He didn't— like, when you get punched in the face, sometimes you're not like crying, but your eyes water. None of that happened. He kept smiling and he was a pro, man.

Sam, you know what happens if you get hit in the side of the head? What's the first thing that you feel or hear?

You— your ears hurt and you want to like grab your face.

Yeah, you hear this ringing buzz, like the sound. You hear this just Giant ringing, and then you got to touch your face. He didn't touch his face. So that— you got to give him respect for the chin that he showed.

Yeah, the round— that was a 10-9 Chris Rock round.

But then Greg's right, actually. He had— I mean, the world was his oyster with all the potential jokes that he could have gone with, the one-liners.

Like, I can't believe— I can't believe they had you in Ali or something like that.

Yeah, exactly. You know, I don't even know what the joke should have been. You know, Greg, what direction would you have gone with the joke?

I would have said, and the winner to the biggest, uh, bitch slap award 2022 goes to William Smith.

Yeah, exactly. Could have given him the Oscar for bitch slap of the year.

Wait, but honestly, what was your take though?

Okay, so I'm, I'm outside of a Cold Stone, just gave my daughter some ice cream. We're trying to get back to the car. I don't know if you know how it is, getting kids in the car is like That's the battle every day. That's, that's the battle. In fact, there's a great Louis C.K. joke where he's like, the greatest moment of any Father's Day is the like 30 seconds from when you close the door and you have them in the car seat and you walk around the car back to the driver's car seat. It's like the 30 seconds of peace that you have in that moment. That's everything. So I'm trying to get in the car and my wife is stopped. She's stunned. She's doing the like, oh my God face, looking at her phone almost to— it was like a cartoon character. And I was like, what? It came like Whatever it is, it can't be, can't be much. And then she was like, no, Will Smith just punched Chris Rock. I was like, what? And so then I watched the video. She made me pull over. We were driving. I pulled over to watch the Japanese uncensored version because we just had to like debrief it in the moment. And, um, I was team Will Smith. I thought it was awesome, frankly. The only part that I thought was not cool, the only part I thought was not cool was that when they first said the joke, he's laughing at the joke. So, bro, you can't laugh at the joke, admit that it's funny, and then basically 2 seconds later build up this rage and then pretend it was so not cool when it was— you were laughing like we got you on camera laughing.

Wait, 2 seconds before that, you don't think that he should have any consequences?

No, no, I didn't say that. He should have consequences. Sure. Okay, sure. Lock him up, throw away the key, whatever you got to do.

No, no jail time. I don't even think— I'm not— I don't even want— I don't want handcuffs. I don't want jail. Just like a, hey, Will, you can't hit someone. You've got to leave. Like, that would have been— that would have been sufficient.

Well, the thing they showed in the— I don't know, the Taiwanese cut, they had the commercial break. I don't know if you guys saw this. Somebody comes running up to him. I think, oh, wow, they're going to be like, dude, what the fuck? We need to get you out of here. Sorry. It's his publicist just immediately giving him notes on how to play this. And so when he goes up for his speech, what do you know? The first line he says is, You know, Richard Williams was a fierce, like, protector of his family. That's the publicist handing him the— feeding him the line of how are you going to spin this to your advantage? Who hates a guy who protects his family? And I think it worked.

I watched his speech. I think he's losing it. So in a way, I feel sorry for him. I definitely feel sorry.

He looked a little off, right?

He looked a little off. He looked like he's kind of— he's getting a little— a little— something's going on. And I hope he could— I hope he works through it and gets back. And also there, dude, him and his wife, man, that's some weird stuff. Like, what's going on? Like, did you see that thing called Red Table, that her show where she just like did a whole show with him on there talking about how she cheated on him and everything like that? And then she went to an award show.

But I watch everything that's trashy like that, so yeah, I saw it.

I saw it twice, man. So like, that's weird to me a little bit. So, uh, there's like a— but this dynamic is, is weird. He's got a lot of pressure on him. I think he just kind of snapped. I think he's working through some stuff. But dude, but so I feel a little sad for him.

Everybody knows a couple that's like this where they're like kind of toxic. They're like toxically in love with each other. It's like they got some weird Bonnie and Clyde shit where they're like, they kind of like, they like make the wrong decision sometimes. They even like, you know, hurt each other's feelings. But then they're like, if anybody else ever tries to encroach, they like will murder for them. And it's like, bro, where's the balance here? It's like us against the world. They love this like us. There's these us-against-the-world couples, and they're definitely one of them.

Yeah, it was messed up. Do you want to talk about, uh, Alex Hormozi? Hormozi?

Mozi? Yeah. What did you do? You were like, bro, I'm going deep on Alex Hormozi. I was like, we are— so would have been nice to do before we had him on the pod. You do it like 10 episodes later.

I had a call with him today. Greg, do you know who this guy is?

I don't know who's that.

All right. Actually, I feel bad. I consider him a friend, but I don't, I don't know if it's pronounced Mosey or Mosey. Alex Hermosey, is it? No, Mosey. Alex Hermosey.

It's one of those things where it's like, like you've known him for a decade.

Yeah.

And it's like, you can't ask him now.

No, you gotta be like, ah, I just call him Moz. I just go by Moz. Because it's one of those, I don't know how to say his name.

Dude, one of my best friends' name is Sieva. I don't even know how to pronounce his last name. Um, so, and I've been best friends with him for 10 years. He's in my wedding. So anyway, this guy Alex, so basically he had this company called Gym Launch, and it was really interesting because some people— and I wouldn't call myself totally on that side, but I understand it— is that it appeared a little scammy. But actually, I don't think it's scammy at all anymore.

He ended up— wait, Sam, you got to describe the guy's look first.

I think that if you did this for agencies like digital agencies, that this is a no-brainer. So, you know, we're— I run an agency called Late Checkout. We're about 50 people, so we're starting to really hit some scale.

And can you say your revenue?

I mean, I don't wanna say my revenue, but we have 50 people, so you can do some of the math yourself. I will say that, yeah, we work with some of the biggest brands in the world and it's very lonely to be like the CEO of an agency. Like, I don't know if I'm overcharging or undercharging. I don't know if I'm, you know, you know, doing the right thing? Should I be doing more marketing, less marketing? So like, would I pay $2,000, $5,000, $10,000 a month to, for like something like this? Like probably if the ROI is there.

So what, uh, what you just read this guy's book, Sean, Alex's book.

I'm reading it right now.

What, what do you think about it?

So it's services. I think it, it works in services. Yeah. Most all services.

But you know, if I'm selling shoes online, it's very hard to create a grand slam offer for selling shoes because, uh, you know, I can't tell you how much more money this is gonna make you, right? So already the offer is a lot less. I'm telling you it looks cool, you know, that you people might like your shoes. That's just fundamentally less compelling. So I just think it's like really, really good for a service business, especially a service business that's in the business of helping other people make money. But like, if, like, for example, I wanted to send it to my accountant and be like, hey, you're charging me like $5,000 or $6,000 a year. You should really be charging $50,000. And if you did this method, I think you would have, you know, like 10 times more clients and make 10 times more money off them. If you presented your stuff this way because you're an accountant, you're saving people money on taxes and you could basically offer a no-brainer offer like this and take more value and grow your business faster if you did it this way. But it doesn't work for everything. It's kind of the takeaway.

I think the pitch is taking a consultancy from a consultancy and turning it into selling luxury. Like, that's the opportunity for a lot of these people, right? Like, I think when you look at McKinsey, McKinsey isn't a consultancy to me. McKinsey is selling like a luxury multimillion-dollar contracts like that. You're buying confidence when you're buying, uh, right, a luxury product.

Yeah, that's exactly right. He talks about that, uh, pretty extensively in the book. But I gotta say, so I, I am reading this book and I have two kind of like my two, like my right-hand man and my left-hand man. I have, I have Ben and then I have this guy Andre. And I told him, I was like, guys, is this good stuff in this book that we should be using? Uh, and so I created like a little mini book club inside of our company to do this. Have you guys ever done that? Like, have you, have you basically, and I've been wanting to do this with podcasts as well. Sometimes I'll listen to a podcast that's like fucking amazing and I've, what I wanna do is just stop listening to it myself and be like, hey guys, we're gonna do a meeting, but the meeting is us listening to this podcast. And every time they say something good, I'm gonna pause and we're gonna talk about it. And it might take us like 6 hours to get through this 1-hour podcast, but I'm telling you, it's gonna be We're going to actually apply the thing versus just I share the link, you read it, I read it. We each kind of move on with our day and we're busy. Have you guys ever done anything like this to like get more juice out of the fruit?

I haven't. I haven't. I've done a book club that I feel like book club is like, you know, a lot of people go in the gym. It's like you start going to the gym and then you kind of like stop. Like, it's really hard to create a really well-designed book club that keeps people engaged.

Yeah, we did book club, but it was the same thing. No one fucking finished the book. So I actually think if we all just listen to a podcast together, it might be a lot easier.

It's a lot easier.

It's like when you go to school and the teacher brings in the TV. That's like how I would feel going to this meeting. I'd be like, oh, hell yeah, we're rolling in the TV.

Was that a big difference for you?

So they like bank it into the reading itself. Oh yeah, it was, it was huge. Uh, like, and also while you're reading, you're, you know, you're taking notes cuz you know right after this reading period ends in 20 minutes, like it's a bit like school. It's like, I'm gonna have to have something to say, right? Like I need to have, I need to be bringing something to the table from this.. And so, um, yeah, that was huge. And I think, I think way more companies should do that. It was like one of the few big company things that I was like, this is a process that is so much better than what I used to do at a, at a, at our startup. Yeah.

Well, I think that podcast idea that you just had is actually fantastic.

Um, cool.

All right.

We lost Greg for a second, but let's, let's keep going. Um, did you have anything more on Hormazy or you wanted to, to go on?

No, that's it. What do you got?

I was thinking about doing a, like a kind of like a summary/lessons learned, cause I have a whole bunch of like screenshots and highlights from the book. I might do a separate pod. That's just that if you want to do that.

I'm down. I just, I just, I just bought the book. I've been watching a lot of his YouTube videos. There's just something about this person. He's very interesting to me. He's very interesting. He's so transparent to the point where it's weird almost. Like, um, it's like, I, I like, he reveals so much.

I almost don't believe you.

Uh, no, I believe him. I believe him for sure. But he's revealing so much that I'm like, are you sure, man? You want to be talking about this? This is crazy. Like, you— like, it's just weird. It's just weird, right? I mean, he talks like—

I don't think it's weird. I think it's smart. And that's why I say, like, uh, do I believe this? It's not that I think he's lying about anything. I think he's telling the truth. It's that when somebody is that forthcoming, it's sort of like, well, what's in this for you? And I think clearly it's I'm trying to get you to trust me, um, and so I'm going to be like kind of like explicitly transparent about something because I— there's a, there's a motive behind that. And I think that's okay, uh, but I think a lot of people are like, wow, thanks dude for the favor. It's like, there's no favors. Um, people do things because they have a motive. They want to build their brand in a certain way. They want to attract more, more readers or viewers, or they're trying to build trust in a way so that they can get some advantage, you know. Then that's okay. I think that's a It's a good thing. I, I do it too. I do it all the time.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I've got, I've gotten to know him over the past few weeks. I, I'm a fan, man. I'm a fan of Alex's, but what do you got?

Uh, well actually we should, so Greg, I, I told you bring 3 or 4 bullets. I don't know if you had time to do that, but I, I have some if you don't have any, but I'd like to use yours if you do, because you're here, you're the guest of honor.

Yeah. I mean, I always have a, a notes file with some ideas. I can tell you, I'm not gonna say they're great ideas, uh, but let's, let's start with that and I, I'd love your feedback. All right, let's do it. So went to a restaurant two nights ago, saw that a bunch of kids were playing these— like, picture like an Applebee's and picture a bunch of vending machines. Like, you know, those games that you can play. I'm thinking NFT vending machines. So you have to pay like 100 Doge to get in. You can win a Bored Ape. Um, instead of winning, you know, collectibles, you're winning digital assets. Is there a business to be created around that?

You're talking about the thing where you would like— the old way is, you know, you put your quarter in and there's a bunch of plastic balls, you get one out, you got this little shitty toy. And it's like, I think in Japan they call these the gacha games. Is that right? Uh, like gacha mechanic where you have this sort of variable reward. You might win the good thing, but you almost never win the good thing. And then you kind of keep wanting to open up these boxes and see what you get.

Exactly that, but with Doge and winning and NFTs inside.

Greg, do you own any NFTs? Are you on board with this or no?

Yeah.

I mean, I've got hundreds of NFTs.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

I think the problem is Doge. I think not enough people own Doge. Um, you know, so I kind of feel like it's like you need to Apple Pay to quickly, like instantaneously buy Doge and then use it, use it in the game basically. Like you need some way way for their phone to just buy the thing and then just keep swiping their phone.

Yeah, I guess like what I'm particularly interested in here is like, what are, you know, in real life experiences that you can create that connect with crypto?

Hmm. Yeah. Another version of this, by the way, cause I don't eat at restaurants anymore. I just deliver everything. So it's like, um, you know, a QR code that comes with DoorDash that I just scan and I get to play the game on my phone. Right. Like, why do they need to buy a screen? When I carry a screen in my pocket. So like, really, all you just need is a QR code to do this game. You don't even have to build the— you don't even have to build the vending machine necessarily.

It's true, it's true. Um, all right, I got another one. So I, uh, moved out of my apartment December 15th. It's now March 28th, and my landlord hasn't returned my security deposit.

Is that in America or it's in Florida?

Yeah.

Miami. Ooh. There's a bunch of laws around that in California.

Well, there's laws around it in, in Florida too. And I Googled it and there's a whole process you can go into it. I'm sure it's probably not as intense as California, but you know, you have certain rights. Um, there's a whole process that you have to go and eventually you go to small claims court, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, how much was it?

What do you think?

Have you, um, scary letter? I love it.

So listen, we got to talk about this, Sean. You know where I'm going to go with this, right? Do not pay.

You're going to Petty Court?

Oh, I like Petty Court. Oh yeah, do not pay. But I'm gonna go do not pay. Greg, have you not heard of Do Not Pay?

Yeah. So is, is Do Not Pay that service that like if you have a parking ticket, you like send it to them and they like, they deal with it and you get a percentage of it back or something like that?

They do a bunch of stuff, but that is one of the ways how they started. How do you explain this company now, Sean, now that it's kind of, they have so many features.

Yeah, I think it start, it basically, it's, it's just trying to save you money from shit that you, you shouldn't have to pay for, you don't want to pay for. So it started with like subscriptions you're not using. All right, cool. Unsubscribe me from a bunch of subscriptions I'm not using. Then it became, yeah, then they also added, you know, like go contest this parking ticket. Cause like, I don't know, 20 or 30% of parking tickets are like filled out incorrectly and you actually shouldn't have to pay. And if we save you money, we will keep a little bit, but it's just, you do no work and you'll get, uh, they just keep a portion of the savings that they get, that they earn for you. And then they expanded into like 83B election, like, hey, we'll do that for you for your startup. So they're just like trying to do, they're basically just trying to eliminate the busy paperwork that nobody wants to do. And they're like, we'll just take care of that shit for you. How would that feel? And a bunch of like people like us who are like millennials who are like, ah, I just don't know how to do it. I don't wanna do it. I don't like printing things or going to the post office and like, doing all this shit. Yeah, please take care of this for me. So it's a time saver company is how I think about it.

And Greg, I had a landlord. I had a $16,000 deposit. This was for our office when COVID hit. Our office lease just so happened to end right around when COVID was happening. So we got really lucky and we just canceled it. And this guy would not give me the $16,000. I found out, dude, I got crazy on him. I found out where he lived and I showed up at his house and he wasn't there. I found out where he worked and I showed up there and he wasn't there. And I used Do Not Pay to send him like a, like a letter. And finally he got back to me. It was like, oh yeah, you know, it just slipped my mind. Like, he was like, no big deal about it. And I was like, dude, I've been hounding you for 6 weeks, man. Where's this money?

And so they have that feature where you can just send a scary letter.

You send a scary letter and it worked. And so we— I got my $16 grand, but legally you're supposed to get $16 grand plus interest, which I did not get. And I thought about like fighting over this just out of principle because I love petty shit.

That's awesome. I'm on board with that.

Can you— what else you got, Greg?

My other one, it relates to law actually a little bit. So, you know, we've been— and Sean, I know you're into crypto. So I've been spending a lot of money on, you know, crypto accounting and crypto law firms. Um, and I think that there's an opportunity to create a Web3 crypto accounting firm and a Web3, uh, crypto, uh, law firm. But all you have to do is basically you find an existing law firm that understands securities law and you're like, hey, you know, you, you, you're, you're a shop of 10 lawyers and you're like, You know, you understand securities law. Maybe there's some, you know, upleveling in terms of learning specifics about NFTs, et cetera. I'm gonna be the like marketing engine for you. You know, use things like the Milk Road and use things like Late Checkout, and I'm gonna, uh, send you leads. Um, so the customer's happy because they're like, wow, this is like a Web3 related you know, law firm and I want to work with someone who's—

What does that mean? I don't know what you're using. You're using words that I don't have no idea what they mean. What does a Web3-related law firm mean?

Okay. So let's just say you're creating an NFT project, but you want to make sure that you don't go to jail. So that you don't do any SEC violations. Do you feel comfortable calling up your regular lawyer? Who might not even know what an NFT is, or would you specifically want to talk to a law firm that lives and breathes Web3?

It depends if they have, um, what's like, for example, if I, what's the term? If I follow something my lawyer says and they're supposed to be the expert and I get in trouble, sometimes I can like blame them. Uh, what's that called? God, I can't remember that. I can't remember, but scapegoating.

Yeah.

No, it's like, um, it's like, uh, it's like when you hire a crime, it's like when you hire a c— if you hire a CPA and your CPA screws you like blatantly, sometimes you're not always— you, you can, you know, that goes— that you're taking into account like, ah dude, I thought he was doing it right and he's a CPA. So like your CPA can actually get in trouble, not necessarily you. So it depends if that lawyer has that, but I don't know, I'd rather just go to a legal— for a lawyer that's special. Yeah, that specializes in this thing. But I don't know why you'd call it a Web3.

He's describing—

he said a Web3 law firm.

Yeah. Like they specialize in— they know the laws around— they specialize.

Okay. I thought you meant like around this Web3, not a digital law firm. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

All this is, is like, I mean, this is a marketing challenge more than anything. And, you know, one of the hardest problems about running a law firm is, you know, or an accounting firm is getting clients. And we talked about this with the agencies. The same thing is true with, you know, law firms and accountancy firms. I think, you know, I don't know the, like, I don't know the margins of some of these businesses, but I imagine they're quite big. Um, so I think there's something there.

So I considered doing this with my, before I did the Milk Road, I was like, all right, what do I want to do? Like, I got this audience that's growing, right? It's like Twitter's, Twitter's pretty big now. It's like, I don't know, quarter million followers, newsletter's growing. I could just like, you know, make no money off this. That's fine. How big would your newsletter— put some ads in the newsletter. That's what's that?

How big was the newsletter?

You were considering starting a bookkeeping service? That's like the worst idea. Yeah, I was like, that's the most boring thing I could do. For you. That's a horrible idea for you.

Um, what was your math for the insurance? What was your math? That— first of all, I think that's— I think you made 100% the right move doing what you did, because those businesses do not fit your skill set or mine at all, of like insurance, like, bet, like being on top of things like crazy amounts, sweating the details.

But you're assuming I'm gonna run it.

I'm not gonna run it.

You're gonna find a good person You and I both run separate baddies. Send them leads.

But all right, so what was your math behind it?

I don't know, I have to pull up all the spreadsheets, but basically just with my existing audience size, I think it netted out where it's like I could be easily clearing, you know, $3 to $5 million a year in profit if I like kind of like hit all my marks.

Tell me more about this.

This is actually really full capacity.

This is actually really interesting. So what are we going to call it? Like Sean Insurance? What was the name?

It's going to be something. I don't know. The name was the last thing on my mind.

Okay.

So I even talked to the— I had this one lawyer, one accountant who I really loved. There's this like Ukrainian woman who was like this like amazing accountant. She was the first accountant I talked to that felt like they work for me and not like as if they weren't just like a narc. And so they were like, she was like, have you thought about this? You know, like Does your business need a vehicle? Because I think right now, just last week of the year, if you just bought a vehicle, we can actually like depreciate that and use that against your books here. Like, she was giving me ideas that were completely legal, but she wasn't just sitting there and saying, yeah, if you give me all your paperwork and your receipts, I'll, uh, I'll file your taxes for you. It was the first person who was saying, wow, you're paying a lot in taxes over here and over here. Um, let me just make sure I'm, you know, saving you money. And so that was the first person. So I was gonna basically talk to her and be like, hey, should you do this? Like, do you want to do this? Do you want to like leave, start your own firm? I'm sure you're scared of all that, but guess what? You just do the thing you're really good at, which is doing people's, you know, like tax strategy and accounting, and I will get you all the clients. That was, you know, the core premise. But of course, I went down— I said I created a free crypto newsletter because I just figured it'd be more fun.

Dude, I think these are great ideas, by the way. I think you made the right decision. But these are actually— this is crazy interesting. I wish you would have told me that you're—

Brilliant.

Well, I love it. I just, I just got a, a mortgage. Um, after my landlord stiffed me. Same thing. And, you know, I go onto Chase's website and I don't know if you've done this, but you go, go on Chase website, you go to the mortgage and there's like 1,000 things to do. Plus you're like transported back to 1996 because you're in this like weird thing.

Yeah, exactly.

There's like JavaScript breaking everywhere. There's like, you like forgot about Flash and like Flash is somehow in there. My banker calls me and she's like, you didn't finish this one thing. And I was like, what?

She's like, I added it to your client portal. It's like, dude, I don't get a notification. I don't go check that. I hate that place. I fucking hate that place.

Yeah. So yes, yes. This is one of those no-brainer ideas. I hope that they actually embed, like create an SDK. They do.

Okay, good. I think that, I don't know if they already do or they're going to, but that was like a big part of, yeah, I was like, this can live inside of your app or whatever. So you, you know, you, uh, you could just kind of like onboard people right there inside their experience.

This landing page is beautiful. This is a beautiful website.

Yeah. So it is absolutely beautiful, but I have a question for you, for you guys. Um, cause it relates actually to, to this and also Gymshark and even the, the lawyer stuff, which is. You know, sometimes when we're creating businesses, you can do one of two things. You can either like create something brand new, which is like this, um, or create like a new gem, like a new way of, you know, doing something. Or you could like help existing people, you know, do some marketing, make some money that way. Do you guys, you know, and the Silicon Valley way is, is very much like go raise a bunch of money, invent something new. And it's really frowned upon to do, you know, the marketing piece of it and sort of positioning on top of it. What are your thoughts? And, you know, do you think about that a lot? You know, because I've been thinking about it a lot. Say it again.

Give us two examples.

I'll give you an example. Give us two examples. So, you know, my last company, the founder of 24 Hour Fitness invested in my company, and he told me that Before the 1980s, there weren't membership-based gyms. Like it was a new thing. Um, and he invented the first one and it became 24 Hour Fitness. I think they sold for $3 or $4 billion. It was a major success. And then there's a lot of people who copied membership-based gyms. That's an idea of going zero to one, creating an absolutely new product. Whereas what he could have done was created a Gymshark of that era or whatever and consulted—

Gym Launch.

Yeah, exactly. Gym Launch. Sorry. And consulted to, you know, add additional revenue to existing, you know, trainers, et cetera. So the question is, do you know how often you are thinking about creating something brand new? Versus, you know, just kind of a money-making additional marketing layer on top of.

Sam, what do you think about that?

I don't think I think of it. Anything that I think of, I don't think any of it's brand new. I think zero, close to zero. I think about that. Do you agree, Sean?

Um, No, I think there's sometimes new things, but it's extremely rare.

It's extremely rare.

Extremely, extremely rare.

But I would even argue that most anything that's new, you could probably actually say, oh, well, it's just like a different version of blank.

You could trace back, right? So like, let's take Airbnb, for example. Airbnb was clearly like kind of like this breakthrough product, became this huge success, and it's like the category killer, the category leader for sharing economy, whatever. Um, and now it's like bigger than hotels, like than all hotels or whatever. So it started off as this fringe thing, but there was like Couchsurfing before that. And like, that was like a product that did a very similar thing. Um, you know, and VRBO and there was, there's other stuff that's like around it. So I, I think you're right that it's very hard to do something completely original, but let me frame it slightly differently, which is it seems like what Greg is almost saying is like, do you want to go for, try to, try to have either a new behavior or an existing behavior. Or another way of looking at it would be, um, do you want to create a product or do you wanna have a service company? Right? Like it's kind of, to me that in those examples, it's like 24 Hour Fitness was a new, was like a new product you needed customers to go buy versus servicing, you know, trainers and, and, and whatever, whoever else. Um, that was, that's like a service business that's gonna have great cash flow and doesn't require you to have this like, winning brand and new product and new customers from scratch. Is that, is that kind of, is it more about the services versus product? Is that the—

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think, um, you know, Sean and, um, Sam, like, you know, having spent time in SF, I feel like when I got to SF, I was all about new behaviors. Um, that was really important to me. And Sean, I know that was true for you too, cuz like Blab, you were always pushing, you know, the envelope with like You know, and Bebo is like new, you know, is there user interfaces and like new friend finding and new, just like new ways of doing things versus now that we're in our 30s, it feels like we're doing less. And this is just an observation and correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like we're doing less of like the new behavior type stuff and more of like, hey, let's just like iterate on this thing and like focus it on this niche. And, and do that.

There's this guy named Roger Dickey. I don't know him. I think Sean knows him, right?

I never met him. I think Greg actually knows him.

Oh, right. So I don't entirely know his full background, but he used to do like a bunch of high-tech stuff. He, I know that he had the, uh, what's the startup that helps you code stuff? It's like a new age, new agency. What's it called? Those with a G, Gixter, Gixter. Okay. And before Gigster, Greg, what was he doing? He was doing something like very traditional Silicon Valley, right?

I just know him from Twitter, but yes, he was doing, uh, he was the co-founder and CEO of Gigster, which was, which, which was huge, but he did it through a really interesting way. I think he did it through a search lab. Do you guys know what a search lab is?

Yeah.

And, but I think before that, like he maybe was at Zynga or something like, like a, like he, he made like a mafia game or something like that. Yeah.

Like something related to mafia wars, right? That's what it was. Yeah. Okay. He made Mafia Wars, which I, which at the time was cutting edge.

Now his latest business, I think it's called Revolution. Is it called Revolution?

Made. Made. And they are renovating bathrooms. And as a recent homeowner who needs a new bathroom, I went to the website and I was like, this is sick. I love this. I'm in. And it looks from the outside like the company is just crushing it. I saw another guy, the guy who started Casper, his name's Luke. One of the four founders, his name's Luke. I think he has a new business that's also renovating bathrooms or maybe kitchens. And I thought it was interesting that these guys— Casper, not exactly like cutting edge, but kind of like kind of new behavior buying a mattress online. Roger Dickey, you know, definitely new behaviors. They're going to like these like older businesses and they're definitely using technology. But at the end of the day, they're not like— they're not inventing anything new. They're just inventing maybe a more efficient process. And in my opinion, those things are far more interesting. And it's kind of intriguing to me that these guys are doing that as opposed to some new cutting-edge thing.

So, so I'll give you my, my take on your, on your question, Greg, which is, uh, in my 20s, it's like the way I traveled was I'd be like, oh, you know, fuck it, I'll go tomorrow, I'll spin the globe, put my finger down. All right, I'm gonna go backpacking through, you know, Eastern Europe, or I'm gonna go to Australia and I'll be, you know, sleeping in a van type of thing. And I wanted the adventure. It was actually the right move to do at that time because it's like, how do you get max adventure, max sort of like discomfort and like outta your comfort zone, you know, max spontaneity, all that stuff. And, um, and then like now it's like, where's like a Sandals resort that I could take my kids and like, you know, I, I just wanna sit down. I just want a place I can go sit that's not my house. And like, this is like basically the extent of my adventure right now. And so similarly, like, that's my hope. My business career was the same. It was like, at the beginning it was like, yo, I'm gonna build the next social network. I'm gonna build a, a dating app where you, you know, you might die or whatever. It's just like these crazy ideas. It's like every idea was like trying to be crazier than the last. It's like, you know, and it all appealed to me that way. And now I'm like, Cool. I could, um, sell a product that I, you know, let me import a product from China and sell it through a Facebook ad. I click 3 buttons. I could just sit in my chair and do that. I don't really need a staff. I don't really, you know, I'll just kind of outsource this and that. I'll, I'm just gonna write a newsletter, um, and I'll just write it in my browser and then that's it. Uh, like I don't have to like become the next Mark Zuckerberg. I just need to get to like enough people where I'm making a few million dollars a year and living a sweet lifestyle., like that's, that's a win, you know? And that's a, and I don't have to manage anybody and I don't have to like stress out about this thing and I don't have to know how to code. I don't have to know any of these things. Oh yeah, great. And so I basically am now in the, the sort of Sandals Resort part of my career. And I mean that in the best way possible, which was back then I was like almost like intrigued by the degree of difficulty and now I'm completely put off by the degree of difficulty. And instead I just do the thing that sounds like What's gonna be easy, simple, fun for me? And, um, and you know, I'm just gonna go that route. And so I am much less interested in like inventing the next big thing as I am like crafting a dope lifestyle, doing something I enjoy.

Do you think that would change?

And like that to me feels like—

but do you think that's gonna change when your kids get older? So when your kids become 8, 9, 10, maybe 8 to like 16, they think that you are the coolest guy ever, or If they don't think that, maybe it's on the other end of you wanting to think that you're cool and you want to impress them. Um, and I've been thinking a lot about that lately. I'm like, do I think that my attitude will change when my kids become 5, 6, 7, 8 and I want to impress them? Do I think like instead of just like having a sick lifestyle, I'd be like, oh man, I want to do something like that they are proud of. Do you think that's going to change?

Not because of that reason. I do think it's going to change, but not because of that. Like, uh, I don't think your kids think you're cool based on like your business success necessarily. I don't, I don't really think that that's the, the main, the main way that kids think you're cool. Um, and even if it was, that's not why I would do something. Um, I would just have more free time, right? Like when my kids go to school, that's gonna be like a fucking game changer. It's like, I'm gonna get a third of my day back, uh, that I, you know, I don't have today. And so when they go to school, I have a lot more bandwidth. If I wanna do something more intense, I can ratchet up the intensity and the difficulty level if I so choose. Uh, at that time, right now, like, dude, before I do this podcast, like, I'm not, uh, I'm not like, you know, researching every detail for the 20 minutes before this podcast. Typically I'm like reading this book called Goofy's Adventure to my daughter, putting her down for the nap, you know, like that's how I prep for this pod. Like 20 minutes before is like, I'm literally reading Disney books, putting my daughter to bed in time to come back out here. Right. So it's like, there's a lifestyle I like right now that's doing this, and so I'm optimizing for that. I think in 5 years I'm gonna be picking a very different challenge than I'm picking today, just because it'll be time for another chapter. And I'll probably be like, oh, that lifestyle shit's boring, I want to go do something big. Or I'm going to be like, fuck business, business is stupid, I'm going to go like try to write a comedy show, and I'm going to like try to sell a show for TV. Like, I don't know, I'm going to do something else with my life. Every 5 years I want to kind of reinvent myself in terms of what I'm doing.

So you've come a long way, Sean. So one of the first times I met you, you invited me to the Bebo launch party and I invite, I was like, could I bring a plus one? You're like, sure. I bring this friend who is visiting and we walk into this warehouse or something in San Francisco. I remember we had to like walk upstairs and like, where was it, Sean?

It was in a, you know, like a car manufacturer, car repair. Yeah, like, like a garage. It's like for car repairs, whatever. I don't know, I forgot how to speak English. But like, basically Michael had bought one of those, like got rid of all the, like, car maintenance stuff and just turned it into like his man cave. And he hadn't filled it up yet with his, his like fancy cars and cool shit yet. So it's just an empty warehouse in the middle of San Francisco, downtown San Francisco. And we threw our launch party there before he filled it out.

So I'm there with one of my buddies from this small town in Quebec. The guy has never left his town basically in his entire life. So he had landed in San Francisco, he's staying with me. He gets into this, you know, car shop or whatever. And it's like dark and there's smoke and there's lights everywhere. And then you walk in and there's all these people and there's lights everywhere. And he like literally whispered to me and he said, is Kanye West coming to this?

Did you say yeah? You should have said yeah.

And it was like one of those moments, like I'm sure a bunch of people have like watched The Social Network when it's like Justin Timberlake is like talking to, I guess it's Mark Zuckerberg in the club and it's just like, it's intense and it's like larger than life. And you were kind of like, living that lifestyle in San Francisco. Not like, I mean, I'm painting you as very playboy and I won't say you're 100% playboy, but in the sense of like you were living that lifestyle, you were doing that like Zuckerberg thing. And now, you know, you're kind of doing the complete opposite. And my question to actually both of you but particularly for Sean, is if you could redo it, would you have done more, more of these product bets that are, uh, there's, it's really less risk. Like for example, Milk Road, like there wasn't that much risk there. Yeah. Let's, yeah. Let's be real. Right. So like, I feel like people, like we're now that we're in our thirties, we're focusing on different niches and we're taking things that are working different communities. And we're just pushing that out there with, you know, low product risk. Would you have done that, or do you think that you needed to do these crazy bets in your 20s to, to, to be where you are today?

I have a very easy answer, but I'll let Sean go first.

No, no, go.

No, I want you to go first. I want to hear what you're going to say.

Playboy Sean.

Well, as Playboy Sean, by the way, for that, I flew in this painter that I had met, and he did it. I don't know if you remember this. He did a live painting where he He's painting this like abstract thing. He's breakdancing while he's doing it. And this is a guy I had seen at a, at a fair in Greeley, Colorado, many years before that. And I was like, hey dude, I have like a, like I have a company that has like a bunch of funding. Like, you want to just like fly out for this party and do something dope? Do that thing you did at that little town fair. Do it in front of like hundreds of people at this thing. And he's doing it. And then at the end, he spins the canvas and what looked like this crazy abstract thing was he had painted like a fucking Bob Marley upside down. And it's like he does this like whatever, he flips the thing and then he's like done and he slaps it with his hand. It's full of paint. And it was like, that was the moment. And I was just like, that party was dope. That was a dope party actually, now that I remember it. So do I regret it? Well, now that I'm thinking about that party, no, I don't regret it. That sounds pretty awesome. I'm glad I did it cuz I'm happy with where I am now. Having said that, there were so many things that I did foolishly during that time. And I'm not just talking about like, you know, oh, you know, I wasn't as good at this thing as I am now. It's like, no, like there was so much opportunity right under my nose and I was blind to it. And like one of the biggest, like scary things for me now is like, what are those things today that are right in front of me that I'm too stupid to see? Just like I was too stupid to see it 7 years ago when I was doing that other thing. For example, Greg, you were in our early mastermind groups and the founders of Calm were there and they were talking about how hard it was and how they're just, you know, it was just Alex. He was just kind of like, yeah, it's hard to raise money right now. I'm trying. And, and we were just like, dude, it's a cool app, man. You should stick with it. He's like, yeah, I'm gonna just keep going. And like, that's a $2 billion plus company now. And we were helping him like, dude, why didn't we cut the check? You were there too. I don't know. You didn't cut a check either.

Did you? I remember at the time, like, if I'm being honest, like I felt that it was too niche. Like I was like, we were like, Sean, you and I were focusing on like, we were doing big stuff, stuff that was gonna be big.

Exactly.

Here we are, one acqui-hire later. Exactly.

And he's, he's got the huge company. Exactly. Uh, there was so many of those. So in our masterminds itself, I think, uh, Loom was in there. That's a billion dollar company. And I remember kind of like trying to mentor Shahid and being like, bro, like, you know, don't worry, you'll figure it out. Maybe it's not this one, but like when you get to your real game, you're gonna be like good because of this experience. You were friends with him too. Like, did you invest in that?

Like, I missed, I missed, it was called, uh, what was it called? OpenTest.co. And that's what Loom was originally. And it, you know, it felt like You know, when you're doing your first startup and it just feels so shaky because you're— it's your first time doing all this stuff, like, that's what it felt like. And so it was, you know, and then also the, the narrative at the time was don't invest in other people's startups. You got— if you, if you want to make it in Silicon Valley, you got to give laser focus. So I, you know, my mistake in my 20s was I came to San Francisco and You know, I listened to all these VCs with all their narratives and I did it. And if I were to redo it, I would frankly just be doing what I now, which is just doing like what I'm doing now, which is like focused on communities, doing agency services, you know, focusing on niches and, and, and web, you know, yeah, just build and experiment and not have the big, biggest exits in the world.

I, uh, so there, there was like, 10 examples like that. Like, uh, I remember Alex McCall came over one day and he, uh, we were catching up and then he went on to start Clearbit. I remember thinking, this guy's fucking amazing. Um, I should invest in this Clearbit thing. And I like went over to his office and we like hung out. I was like, got to meet the guys. I was like, I love the energy of this office, man. Like if I just couldn't do anything besides feel this office, I would be like, they're building a winner in here. That's also like a, I don't know, I dunno if it's a billion, it's multi-hundred million dollar company. Um, and he told me at the end, he goes, Oh, by the way, I'm buying up, uh, I was like, what else are you doing? Finally, I started to ask smart questions. I was like, what else are you doing? He's like, oh, I bought up some Stripe shares. There's Stripe shares available for like $2 billion. So I'm buying a bunch of Stripe shares. I think it was him. Maybe it was Josh Buckley. He was one of them. And he's like, I'm buying up Stripe shares for $2 billion. Let me know if you want in. And I was like, $2 billion to me, I was like, well, that's like the most a startup is worth. It's like a billion is like the top of the mountain. So like, to me it was like, oh, there's no upside left. You know, I didn't like think from first principles about like, Everybody knew Stripe was fucking amazing and was like the best startup in the whole, like, you know, in Silicon Valley. And I had this opportunity to go buy Stripe shares at $2 billion and I thought how late I was and I was like, man, I wish I could have got in earlier. And now, like, you know, the things I would give for Stripe shares at $2 billion now, like, it's like, that's already like, like 100x, you know, from, from there. And that was proven, right? Forget that. Then there was all the services we were using. Like Furkan, who's my CTO, he would be like, oh, this is a cool, cool product. Let's use this in our tech stack. If I had just invested in all the bills we were paying for like software we were using, like PagerDuty and Elasticsearch and stuff, you know, like one after another, those were all huge winners that were pre-IPO. Um, so first was investing. The second was like project selection. So like you were talking about, Greg, I did the same thing. I was playing by the rules of like, I was playing by other people's rules, meaning like what was considered cool in Silicon Valley was to be like a product guy who was building, who had like cool product taste and was building like, um, you know, like new markets and like going for the, the big billion dollar prizes. And then I met Sam who was like, I'm writing this newsletter, it's free. I'm gonna have like newsletter ads in it. And I was like, yeah, but like, are you gonna do a startup someday? Like, that's how I felt about it.

Right.

Then Sam's company sells for more than, more than my company sold for in the end.

He goes, uh, he goes, Look, you're good, but basically, like, you're showing up to a knife fight with a knife, and I wish you would show up with a magic wand that would just murder the competition. I'm like, sounded cool, right? I was like, uh, that's a great analogy, that's a cool story, but like, uh, I don't know, man. I think the math kind of— I think it might achieve the desired outcome which I'm trying to do here. Which, uh, when I started, I was just trying to be financially independent by the age of 30. That was the only goal.

What happened to that pizza company?

Uh, I think they're still in engineering risk mode. They got like a big contract from Domino's, but then their CEO got was in trouble for something, so they hired a new CEO, something, something, something. You know, like, again, these are legit engineering risks, so I'm not like, that doesn't mean they'll all work, but like what I'm doing with the newsletter is like neither technical risk nor market risk. Yeah.

It's operational risk. It's just, are you gonna be, are you gonna be able or wanting to do it for a long time? Which is, yeah, which is like, you know, that's a pretty good thing to try to overcome.

Right.

Yeah. It's really tough. You know, I remember coming to San Francisco and, and hearing all these narratives and these VCs telling me this, and also entrepreneurs sort of repeating a lot of this stuff. And I will say it, it's tough to go against what these stamps of approvals say to do. You know, like you have to tell yourself every day, like, and I have to do that too. Like when I started a services business, all my, most of my Silicon Valley friends were like, a services business? Like an agency, that's what you're gonna do after, you know, like, and you just kind of have to push forward and, and really just, um, remember that, you know, just because some, you know, certain people on Twitter say a certain thing or, or, or Sequoia or Andreessen say a certain thing doesn't mean, um, you can't have a great, like, I would say you can have a better lifestyle not being Mark Zuckerberg than being Mark Zuckerberg.

Yeah, exactly. The Pope's Catholic, bro. A brown bear shits in the woods, right? Obviously. Yeah.

What was that? A brown bear shits in the woods?

Yeah, that's a Sam Parr special. That's a Sam Parr special.

Is that the number 7 Sam Parr special I just ordered? Because I think I got it.

Does a brown bear shit in the woods?

Yeah. That's why people listen to this podcast, though. For a couple of Sam's Bar specials.

Did you— what did you say? Did I, did I just order a Sam's Bar special number 7? Because I think I just got it. Yeah, that's good. By the way, uh, there I made a joke recently where Sean, you go, yeah, so there's these short traders, and I said, oh yeah, how tall is he? And you just like totally skipped by it. And the people that comment on YouTube were like, I think the joke was funny, but it was definitely funny that Sean just ignored him.

No, people were like, dude, how did you not acknowledge that absolute gem on time, on target? You were, you were quick with that one.

Yeah, it got no love, and the commenters, uh, pointed it out.

You're the new Chris Rock, man. You're the new Chris Rock. You're a better version of Chris Rock.

Thank God this is digital. He's gonna Bitch slapped me right in the face, dude. I can't believe that happened. I'm gonna like, right after this, I'm gonna go see— I can't wait to see, uh, Will Smith apologize.

Oh yeah, he's for sure gonna come out with something. By the way, the form on his slap, if you look at the photo, full extension, crossbody. I mean, like, do you— I've never slapped anyone. If I tried to slap someone once, I'm not gonna have perfect form. That guy has to have slapped before because You don't just wake up with perfect form on a slap like that. Like, just look at the extension and tell me that's not a bit— that's not his 12,000th slap.

Smith is a habitual slapper, man.

He's a professional.

This guy has slapped before. We got to— we got to stop this guy before he gets out of control.

I wonder—

he's definitely slapped before.

I wonder, as he was walking up the catwalk, there was like 5 seconds there. So I wonder what he was thinking. Like, was he like, you know what, am I going to punch him? Am I going to slap him? Like, I wonder what was going through his mind.

I think he's off his rocker a little right now.

I've done that before to my sister where like I knew I was mad and I started to charge. She's 5 years older than me, so I was like, you know, a kid at the time and I knew I was mad and I had, I had a, I have to do something, but I had no plan. And so I had like 3 steps to improvise the plan. I remember this and she'll, she always tells the story. We were in the kitchen and I was pissed cuz she made fun of me. And I'm 5, 6 years old, and I was walking, and I am in the kitchen. I just grab a butter knife, and I go, "Nisha, this is the end." And like, she was like, "The end of what?" I was like, "The end." And like, nobody knows what happened after that. We both just blacked out. She thought it was hilarious that I had, you know, said like a movie line like a loser. And I was holding this butter knife. I don't know what I was gonna try to do, but, uh, it wasn't gonna work. She was— she could overpower me at pretty handling at that time.

The Sean Pory special.

Sean Pory special.

All right, that's the episode.

By the way, Greg, you said something. Don't, don't edit yet. I wanna, I wanna leave with, uh, with, with Greg got my wheels turning even while we're joking. My wheels are still turning about what you just said about the narrative. Here's my challenge, each of us, what's one narrative that you think actually you should be going counter to that narrative? Like there's a narrative that we hear as entrepreneurs, as people in kind of tech, And like, what do you think is the like, actually, I don't know, maybe it's this other thing instead. So if anyone has one, do it, but otherwise I'll give you one.

Yeah, go for it.

I agree.

Than a basket of angel investments.

The, the, the, no, the, our friends who have all crushed it on angel investing you know, that means they made their investments 5 or 8 years ago and it was different.

It is—

I'll give my—

what, Sean?

I was going to say, give the Moyes quote about getting rich quick.

He goes, why does everyone hate on getting rich quick? Get rich quick schemes are the best. I want to get rich quick. I don't want to get rich slow.

I got— I got to real quick. So I got off the phone with a friend of mine who works at Facebook. He told me this morning He told me that he works roughly 90 to 120 minutes per day on average.

I thought you were going to say 90 to 120 hours a week.

He— yeah, it's the best when you measure your work in minutes.

He texted me. He texted me today. He said it was 9:12 AM. He said, 9:12 AM, finished work for the day. 12 minutes. And so Yo, put us in a group chat.

I want him to text us every day just the timestamp of when he's live.

That's what I told him to do. I said, you need to create like a Twitter anon account. A Twitter. That's— and so I'm going to—

stay tuned.

Do that. But I think that in your 20s, like potentially go work at Facebook, go work at Google, get those high-paying jobs.

I think that, by the way, I think that's a good way to get a win.

Get, get, you know, do that for a few years while you're, you know, do your, doing your, your learning on the side, like join a DAO, build a community, build a newsletter, do whatever you want to do. It would really speaks to you while you're, you're not, you know, yeah. So you're making money and you're learning. What more could you ask for? And then my, and you know, just because you gave a crypto, uh, one, Sean, I think that And I know I spent a lot of time in NFT land and Web3 land too. I think that NFTs are going to 99% free to mint. It's going to be a free, free to mint thing. I think the idea of selling NFTs, uh, will be a very small thing.

Okay. So what happens? Why, why would I give away something for free or what's my incentive? So what happens after it's free to mint?

Yeah. I mean, you know, okay. So the idea right now, it's like people are selling NFTs and projects for 0.05 to 0.2, let's say on average for some of these, you know, 10,000 PFP projects. I think that, um, that's going to burn out at some point. And I think we're starting to see it burn out a little bit. And I think that, you know, did you see the Hundred Thieves drop?

Yeah, they, they, uh, what did they do exactly?

Yeah. But when you're in your 20s, my pushback to that is like when you're in your, let's say early 20s, like like, do you know, like, you're saying that now, but I think like, yeah, um, you do need like that operational experience. And that's where my point is, um, you gotta like, it's worthwhile to, to just potentially take a high-paying job and then on the side kind of like experiment and do stuff.

Yeah, that's true. I'm not really limiting mine to the 20s. I think, uh, I'm still making mistakes in my 30s, so I'm assuming other people are too. And I, I guess it's more like, what narrative do I hear now that's easy to float along with that I'm like, you know what, actually, I don't, I don't think, I just think this is true. And like, that's the one for me, which is like, for most people who wanna be entrepreneurial, they default to starting a business. And I think actually maybe it should be the opposite. Maybe you should default to taking on an existing business and growing it. And only create a new thing if you like actually have a new invention in mind, a new idea that really you can't shake in your head versus like just starting a new startup. I like that. Because, because you want to be an entrepreneur, right? All right. I think we lost Sam. We got to go. All right, Greg, thanks for coming, man.

Where should people find you? Twitter @GregEisenberg or on our pod where it happens.

Or in the mountains of Canada.

Or the mountains of Canada.

Unless you're the IRS, in which case he's in Miami. At least 180 days.

At least.

All right, see ya.